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Welcome to the Scene
Welcome to the Scene takes a candid and human look at the musicians of the indie rock/ emo scene of the early 2000s. Host Jeremy Houtsma, Licensed Mental Health Counselor, presents a free-flowing conversation that tends to go in inspiring and reflective paths that touch on a myriad of topics including mental health. The result is an intimate look at not just the music created but also the stories, history, and growth of these individuals. It's a whirlwind listen of nostalgia, inspiration, and insights into who these bands and people were and where they are now.
Welcome to the Scene
Jake Brown from 238, Moments in Grace, En Masse and Isya.exe
Challenging the status quo and diving headfirst into the colorful world of music, our episode today resonates with the influential beats of Jake Brown, a creative force behind bands 238, Moments in Grace and Isiya dot exe. A small-town musician with considerable talent, Jake talks us through his journey of juggling parenting responsibilities while feeding his passion for music.
As we navigate through Jake’s narrative, we touch upon some profound discussions around mental health and the therapeutic role music plays in coping with the same. Exploring the evolution of his music career, we delve into his punk influences and the incredible journey of his band, 238 Moments in Grace. Further, we crack open the recording process, examining the significant influence of lyricism and the exhilarating experiences of touring with big-name bands.
Ending our captivating conversation with a deep dive into the complexities of the music industry, we shine a spotlight on the challenges that small-town bands face. No stranger to these struggles himself, Jake shares the compelling journey from being a small-town band to touring with the iconic My Chemical Romance. Finally, we get a glimpse of Jake's life as a 42-year-old musician and father of three, his creative exploration of music, and his appreciation for the reinterpretation of genres by the younger generation. This is a compelling exploration of music, mental health, and the balance of life that is sure to leave you inspired.
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Hello everyone and welcome to the scene. I'm your host, jeremy Haltzma. Today's guest is Jake Brown from the band's 238 Moments in Grace and Isiya dot exe. Jake and I talk about 238 and its impact, especially as a realm to connect with people, about living in a small town, mental health issues and those sorts of different things. It was a fantastic conversation. I can't wait for you guys to hear so. With that said, welcome to the scene. What's up? How are you nice, mike?
Speaker 2:Yeah is that a sure it is, yeah and my mic stands kind of broken so it's coming up from down here. I'm gonna be like I feel like Bob Barker or something.
Speaker 1:Tell them where they won. Thanks, thanks for coming on, man, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Thank you for asking me, yeah that was great. I've really enjoyed going back and listening, getting a. I'm. I haven't quite finished it, but I'm listening to the Steve Lamos episode right now because that's somebody that I mean. I've always been a huge American football fan and it's Specifically his drumming is something that's always been Super intriguing. He's just really unique in that way. He's absolutely one of my favorite drummers, so that's he could not.
Speaker 1:He could not have been a nicer guy Like there's no way I was getting like Mike can sell or anybody. So I was like, oh, just you know, steve had, I think you had like maybe like 20 posts.
Speaker 2:On. Instagram and I just like he's kind of serious. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:He was. He was an excellent person to talk to and also really helpful. He was like oh, I think you should talk to this person, that person and and I, yeah, yeah, I think like my, I Was like overjoyed at one point. He's like you're really good interviewer. I was like, oh god.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was great, it's great. I'm almost done with it, but yeah, it's a great, great episode for so.
Speaker 1:I mean the. The format is kind of like whatever you wanted to be, sorry, my dogs are Scout, go lay down. You were just outside go. Sorry, I gotta be. It's a hundred degrees outside right now.
Speaker 2:It is so hot in my house too, and I'm wearing yeah, I'm wearing a hoodie. Why is that?
Speaker 1:I Mean I live in the Portland area like South, south, southwest Washington. It never I mean only the past few years it's gotten like this. But that this is not, it's not normal. It was like a hundred and six yesterday. So yeah, typically, I mean I grew up in New Jersey most of my life Well, half my life now but I Mean summertime was always super hot. We used to vacationed in Florida, kind of in West all you did. Yeah, we used to go to West Palm. All the time we had people who had like a condo there. So that's where you know, lucky enough to go down there, went to our land, you know, went to Disney World of course studios and all that stuff.
Speaker 1:So yes, it is. You know one thing I remember out Florida is summertime like clockwork. There was a rainstorm for Like maybe two hours and then it would clear up, and it was usually around like three, four or five o'clock. I you know it just round, round, round round the clock. It was just like that.
Speaker 2:Super sure yeah we're about some Florida deal if I live in St Augustine, which is okay. Yeah, did you ever get get over up here this way?
Speaker 2:No, no, no yeah, it's usually not like the first destination. I mean like everybody comes to Florida at some point for Disney and Universal but the St Augustine is a really good, like Repeat visit type of place. Yeah, it's, we're a tourist town I work in and I kind of like dip in and out of working in the hospitality and Music industries. I kind of go back and forth between the two. But this is a you know, if you work in tourism, I mean Florida's the place to be in St Augustine is it's the nation or it's the first Spanish settlement in the United States.
Speaker 2:Oh wow, I didn't know that there's a ton of history and the downtown is kind of like it's kind of like it's like very European in in that it's, like you know, walkable and there's lots of interesting historic sites and things to do. So yeah.
Speaker 1:So I mean, obviously I stocked you will not obviously Stocked a little on Instagram. But what's blowing my mind right now is your daughter went to high school. Like right, did she start school? She just started, yeah who starts school in August. Like is that, like a like that is so disappointing. As a kid I would know. No, it was like always after Labor Day, but I know it's weird Is that like a newer thing or it's always on the line.
Speaker 2:like my birthday is August 20th, so mine's the 16th weekend.
Speaker 1:Oh no, it's tomorrow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah so I mean, I'm like pretty much school was always coming back when my birthday was starting or yeah, it was usually like it would be like the first week of school starting.
Speaker 1:August birthdays kind of sucked, because like there was that impending doom of like it's the last gasp before School starts and I didn't, I didn't mind, I didn't mind school, but at the same time it I don't think any kid is like how's? Ah, let's go back to school, yeah you know, type of things.
Speaker 1:So but that's, yeah, I've noticed because I I'm a mental health therapist, I remember with teenagers that's kind of like my specialty, and even seeing Like people's kids are like it. Just I would have been so pissed as a kid if they were making me go back to school in August because, like I said, like clockwork, at least in New Jersey, it was always after Labor Day, it was like a day or two, I mean you're lucky.
Speaker 2:I don't, I don't think. I mean, my memory is not great. I'm 40. I'm about to be 42. So I. I mean, yeah, I, I, but I feel like I was usually going back to school sometime around my birthday. I know what so you're a Leo then yes, correct. Have you ever Paid it to? Like I don't know a lot about you know astrological or astrology and astrological science, but like I did have a Revelation where I realized a lot of my favorite artists and directors, or musicians and directors, are Leo's.
Speaker 1:Oh really.
Speaker 2:Like, yeah, like I'm a obsessive tears for fears fan and Roland from tears for fears is a Leo. Anthony Gonzalez from M83 is a Leo, nice the director David O Russell's a Leo. I'm like, oh, there must be something to that that I'm attracted to, to the art of Leo's. I don't know.
Speaker 1:I had a fan if you like Art and Movies and things like that had a really good conversation with. His name is Jimmy stat. He's from a band called polar bear club.
Speaker 2:Okay, I've heard of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we just kind of go off into this section on his favorite. He's a huge movie buff, so we talked quite a bit about that. Why let him talk? I was actually a TV and film major when I was in oh undergrad, which is not what I'm doing now, but I I kind of thought oh, that's right, you're mental health care.
Speaker 2:That's so, yeah, that's, that's an incredible, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I work with teenagers primarily, I'm actually so I have a private practice, um that I've been doing for about six years and actually starting in September I'm kind of transitioning out of that. It's it's a, it's a fantastic like I love having a business, that, having control of it. But things are very ebb and flow and I am very picky about who I work with, because I spent some time in community mental health and, you know, just for my own sake of you know, like I have a couple rules to kind of pick and weed some people out, and this this might sound weird just because For me it's about sustainability, right. So there's like I can't see everybody and I'm also no good to anybody if I'm just completely Consumed, you know, by burnout or you know whatever.
Speaker 2:But like it's been a while since I've had a therapist, but I was going to, if I had when I was younger I had. I was having kind of a hard time in my late 20s, early 30s and I I went to a variety of counselors and I kind of what wasn't finding a match and then I finally found someone that was like the match it was. She was like the perfect, you know it was. It was a perfect like patient, doctor, whatever relationship and but she at one point she told me you know, I've been doing this for 20 plus years. I don't know how much more I have of this in me. Yeah, I can only imagine that you're like how draining that is on you to to, depending on you know what, to even talk to one person right, right, I think, something that people don't necessarily realize.
Speaker 1:And Well, I mean, maybe they do. I think there's more and more people who are advocating both in good and negative ways for mental health, but the the idea of just trying to be present with somebody and, like my mind is all, I'm listening. But I'm also searching right, and so I'm kind of doing this silent kind of dance inside of myself where I'm like, oh, that's interesting, or like I'm sensing through body language or feeling, you know. You're just always kind of Like have this kind of radar that's going around and like what's going on?
Speaker 1:what's going on right now, what's going on for them? And to try and be truly, truly present with somebody for an hour and and even have that back to back to back, even if it's not a heavy session, even if it's just kind of like shooting the breeze, it's like trying to keep your attention solely focused. Yeah, you know, on that, and I, I was recently diagnosed with ADHD, and so that's it makes it even harder.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then also, like I have, I have my own personal story with mental health, right, and so you're, you're as you're talking, you're also kind of like keeping yourself in check and like, oh, is that that bringing up stuff in me, or is it? Is it about them? Or yeah, it's a, it's a really that's tricky.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's very, it's very tricky.
Speaker 1:But I I went to a really really good school that had us really really good, had us real, real deep in our own shit and Trying to work that out before we ever stepped foot into a counseling space or office. So it was. It was a great program, which I'm really thankful for. So, yeah, yeah, we were talking TV and Film, and this is just kind of how it goes, like we're just, you know, go over.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:The, correct me if I'm wrong. You have a YouTube channel I.
Speaker 2:Do. Yeah, I've said since like the start of YouTube, like I was like a thought, I've kind of always been a like a Early adopter tech nerd, you know so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I was on YouTube right away and I was also always like in in the 90s, I was always the guy with the camera. You know, like I like to document shows. That was just what I love to do and it's funny to me that now that, like you know, I mean like everybody does it now, but back then I felt a little insecure about it because it was like you know, and not everybody wanted to be recorded and Also, you know, you're just the only one but it, you know, it was also a cool way to like get up to the front. It could show.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, you know, try to get good footage. So I just recorded everything for years and, yeah, I really I need to go back, I need to, I need to buy the gear to like Redigitize all that old footage. I still have all the old tapes. Hopefully they still. They aren't moldy or anything Like I really, because some of the stuff I uploaded on the channel is now like not at the right aspect ratio. So, really like I've got these old zeo videos and these old, just lots of old good show footage that Needs to be updated so and and tons of stuff I've never even posted. So like I One of these days, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I know you are too, so it's like hard to find time right, right.
Speaker 1:It's like there's all all the stuff I want to do you, but I have no energy to do it right at all and I'm in, I'm in the. My Kids are four and a half and one and a half, so we're just starting out, sort of you know oh yeah, you're just getting started my mind, my mind is just, absolutely every day is like Screwed up. It's just, it's like I need more sleep. I Could barely think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know tough years. Those are really really tough years, I mean, and you'll get through to it. You'll get through it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean thankfully we have friends who are kind of you know their kids are a little bit older and they're just kind of like reminding us and you know it's like a year. This is hard, you know. Sometimes just having that, that affirmation of like when, when did you? And just being able to ask questions like what did you guys even find time to be together or like even Foster your own like relationship or marriage, you know it was like a super, super difficult, you know it's really difficult.
Speaker 2:I have, I have three kids and my middle son, mills, is. He is he's allergic to like a lot of different foods and touch and ingestion sensitive to dairy eggs, soy, peanuts, tree nuts, fish, shellfish, and you know it's been quite an adventure. He's he's 11 now. Yeah, and we found that out. We found out he had all those allergies when he wasn't even a year old. So yeah, for like for the last 10 years it's been quite a it's. It's tough man.
Speaker 1:How many? How many Epi pens do you have in the house?
Speaker 2:Oh, there's like they're everywhere Expired one. We yeah, we've got, we've got three.
Speaker 1:Right now. My son's got a pretty severe peanut allergy and does he?
Speaker 2:yeah, See, it's, and that adds a lot of stress, you know. You know, not only are you, you know you've got young kids that Probably don't sleep well and all of that, but then also you know like you add an allergy onto that which is so common now. Yeah it really when, so much so you know things that they're around, inevitably in school and with their friends are poison, you know, right, yeah, that's a lot of stress.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, the funny thing is is like we, you know, I don't know how it is in Florida, but we live in like a Very progressive area, so to speak, where like People are, just like you know my son's in like a not free classroom, like there's no nuts allowed, just oh yeah, you're in the Portland area.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, yeah, like we need to go there.
Speaker 1:It's. It's, yeah, there's like every and all food allergies. Are, you know, kind of ticked off? And it's super interesting because we actually he goes to a pretty, my, my one and a half year old goes to a pretty like conservative Christian preschool because it I mean daycare, because it was like the only one that we could like find that would take in. And they're the ones who were like no nuts, nothing. You know what I mean. It's like they just I'm it's a legal liability, like at that point, you know it's a thing.
Speaker 1:But I've never been more thankful for teachers and daycare people and my entire life, and pediatricians and you know my wife's a nurse, so she deals with all Like the pediatric stuff because I can't handle it like If I yeah, we've had to have my one son, my oldest, in the emergency room like once or twice and he had to get an IV and he was small, he was like two and he it was taking them a long time once they put that needle in to get to find the spot and he was crying so hard that he like threw up and I was like I gotta go and my wife was like okay, I just had a moment. And I came back and I like apologized to the ER staff, whatever, and they were like the guy was like don't worry about it, man, like it's not a thing, like we do it's, yeah, you're fine, like type of thing. I just felt so bad, you know, but I was so thankful for you know that there are people who do this and can stand doing this as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's pretty mind blowing. I definitely I couldn't do it for sure.
Speaker 1:So you know, I just kind of I guess I kind of wanted to start out just by asking you where are just like how you started getting into music and like what were some of the first like influential songs or bands that you know really kind of got you into going to shows or music or in general.
Speaker 2:I became obsessed with music in middle school. I mean just, I think I begged my parents to buy me a couple of cassette tapes at the BX, which was I grew up. My dad was in the Air Force so I grew up on Air Force bases when I was younger and the BX was like that was like our, you know our store where we could go.
Speaker 2:You know you could go, groceries you could get. You know it was like Walmart or whatever. So you know I begged them to buy Tiers for Fears, elemental on cassette and Genesis.
Speaker 2:We Can't Dance, so that will tell you the year it was like I don't know yeah yeah, and at the time I was like heavily listening to the radio and I was recording the radio. I was like making my own mix tapes of stuff off the radio. I was calling the local radio station and making requests and like you know, I remember, just like I just it was like all in and it really was. Tiers for Fears Break it Down Again was the single from that album that like convinced me and that's a funny, that's a difficult entry point to explain to people because, like a lot of people know Tiers for Fears but like that's would be like their least popular single probably ever, although it's, like you know, to me like amazing. You know, like that, like the 90s Tiers for Fears, that was like my onboarding point and really like that album was so had like big. I guess. For me it was like probably like the same kind of thing that people have with like Pink Floyd, where it was just like this vast recording but it was like a universe unto itself. It kind of felt like he created a whole like reality on that album and so that was really like the vastness of that record was what really got me interested in, you know, finding more stuff like that. So, yeah, that was kind of where it started, but then actually going to shows was came way.
Speaker 2:Well, several years later, just like the first local show I ever went to was 238. They were. They had just started planning and a friend of mine was in a band with the singer, chris. They had a band called Overflow which we made fun of a lot because it was like we pictured like a toilet being the like the logo for that band. But Chris broke off and started 238 with a couple of other guys and they had a little buzz going and they were playing at a Christian radio station in Fort Walton Beach, florida, which it was them, and a band called NPD nonprofit development, and Gilea, who is still plays today. She's in a band now that's on Velvet Blue Music called Leme of Earth, but she's also done a ton of amazing records under her own name. Definitely check her out if you haven't. Gilea.
Speaker 1:Gilea.
Speaker 2:G-I-L-E-A-H. Yeah, she's amazing. So, yeah, I went to go see them play and it was just that was it. I was like, oh yeah, I'm hooked. Like I recorded the show on a tape recorder in my pocket and actually like this is one thing I haven't talked about in a long time, but it's kind of coming up more now with the music I'm making today. But I actually like took their demo tapes. Like I recorded their live tape and then they also had like a demo tape they released and I remixed it at the time.
Speaker 2:This was like must have been like mid to late 90s. I digitized the album and just started chopping it up and some of the remixes were like really ridiculous, like funny. And then some of them were like serious, like I'm trying to like add something to this like samples into the songs and kind of. And I remember giving it to them. I went to one of their shows and I gave it to them. I was so excited. And then they I think they popped it in. I wasn't there for them popping it in, but they popped it in and heard like the joke remix I did.
Speaker 1:Oh no, so mad at me, Screw you man.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, it was like kind of a goof on one of the vocal lines and anyways, yeah, so I've been like it's funny because here I am in 2023 and the Issa stuff that I'm doing, the music I'm making now, as Issa is like the stuff I was actually thinking of at that time, but I just didn't know how to play electronic music live. It was like.
Speaker 2:I know how to edit stuff on a computer and I know and I had a drum machine and stuff, but I just didn't really know how to make that a performance. So I always just ended up in rock and roll bands, because that you'd find a drummer, that's easy. It's easy to put that together. But I didn't know anybody making electronic music so it was kind of this like part of my life that I was always interested in and always kept an interest in, but as far as like playing it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, your first introduction to 238 itself was that more of like a local scene that was going on and if so, like where? What was going on in the local scene at that time in terms of like growth, and you know what was the scene there? I guess I should ask.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it was a unique scene because we were being in the Panhandle of Florida. You know, this was like the town I lived in was called Niceville and the 238 guys all lived in Fort Walton Beach and the music scene was like it was like people that also lived in Destin, pensacola, crestview, that was like kind of like the general area and Panama City and there was a good music scene. And I think it was because we were like really separate from the rest of Florida. Like there's definitely like a long documented, good music scene in Gainesville or Orlando. You know there's a lots of other music going on in the state, but the Panhandle was really isolated. You know, like to get to Orlando is a six or seven hour drive, so you know a lot of tours would pass us over. So if we got a tour in like like I remember the dismemberment plan came through once and played a small show for us and it was like blew the doors off the place, it was like incredible. You know, so every once in a while we would get some really special band that would stop through, but for the most part it was like a very disconnected from everything else kind of music scene. But it was.
Speaker 2:There was a lot of togetherness and it was like it was great because it wasn't. There was a. Also, you're in the Bible belt, so you've got. You know, christianity is playing a role in this. There were several Christian bands that were in that world and then there were plenty of like secular, non-christian bands that were playing shows together, like generally, like everyone got along and played together, so it wasn't you didn't see a lot of like judgment on that part of things. I mean I just yeah, it was great, it was, so it was good. I could. I could list off a ton of great local bands from that time. Some of them are on my YouTube channel.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but there there was a ton of them and 238 was one. You know that I just was immediately drawn to, so like to actually play with them later was like super exciting for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you'll hear me talk about this with Steve on the podcast too, and I also talked about it with somebody else Just what was it you feel like about that time that created such such a buzz and also like it? To me it doesn't seem maybe comparable, at least where I live. Anywhere else it kind of you know that sense of community, like what did you feel like was kind of special about it for yourself?
Speaker 2:Well, it's like, it's like it's like a all the all the artists kind of inspire each other. You know, you see this other band that are doing something and you want to tap into it in your own way, or maybe you that you know you can act with somebody in that band and you guys have a vision, you know, and you start your own thing. And I think it just comes in cycles, like in different towns. You know, I did listen to a little bit of you and Steve talking about that and I agree there's there is kind of like this you know, modern day it's easy to just record a record in logic and post it online on band camp and Spotify. But but you're really you are missing out if you're not actually trying to connect with people in your area. And I and I think that I don't think that it's gone Like I'm kind of like with Issa lately I have, I feel like I'm in another scene like that.
Speaker 2:Right now they're in Florida. There are there's a really long, long standing Florida goth scene right and like, like goth music in Florida, it just goes hand in hand. There's so much darkness in this state and you know, like you know with Issa, there are a ton of like-minded artists that here in Florida that I can kind of go city to city and play with and I still feel, and it's the closest thing I've had to that Connection since since you know I was younger playing in 238. But I've also seen even here in St Augustine. I've been in St Augustine for maybe about 22 years now and there was never a music scene here. It was actually hard for me to live here for the first bit because I went from an area with an amazing music scene to kind of like nothing like there, nothing that was for me necessarily, you know there was kind of a surf punk scene and yeah, yeah, but like there wasn't, was not, has not been.
Speaker 2:Oh, hitting my mic has not been much in the way of of a music scene here. Am I still clipping, by the way? No, you're good, you're like you're good Cool.
Speaker 2:But but then you know, I'd say maybe in the last like 12 years here, I have seen there, there I have seen some ebbs and flows here. There has been a time where we've had a really solid punk scene, lots of interesting bands happening. Then some of the people move away and then, and then right now, you know, after we came back from the pandemic, their people were excited about shows again and there were some really young people starting to play out and they, you know, I, started getting asked to play shows by really young people and I accepted those because, even though I didn't know them and maybe their music was a little different, I felt like to me community is really important and, like you know, kind of seeing what they're doing and then showing them what I'm doing and connecting in that way and I and it's awesome. So I mean, I think that I still kind of feel it right now.
Speaker 2:You know, but I'm also like it's also very much like something I don't have a lot of time for, being married three kids and working all the time.
Speaker 1:So it's.
Speaker 2:I try to participate how I can. I tried. I didn't do it for a long time when my kids were your kids aged, because you know that's really hard to do. It's really hard to do things that involve you getting out of the house or being in a band with other people during those years.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's hard on a good day when you're young, you know, like just even trying to get ideas together and you know people on the same page, like there was a certain point for me where being in a band I was like I just I don't want to go to practice, I don't. I like I have grad studies that I'm doing and, like you know, it's on a good day. Sometimes it's stressful to be in a band, you know, especially if you're like butting heads with people and whatnot. I am really kind of curious about the tears for fears transition into 238 and what that. You know, like obviously you were a big fan of the band, but I would say that when I think of 238, I don't necessarily think of, you know, tears for fears. So was it just like happenstance that? Did you ask them to play? Did they ask you? Because I know replacing the bass player was a big deal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm definitely leaving out a big chunk of history, which is is you know, I started out with tears for fears and Genesis and, you know, at the time, nirvana and I was a huge Weezer fan. So when you add, you know, there's some guitar, some guitar rock for you that starts to come into play more. I started, I started to get into, you know, different punk bands and all that and then at the time I had my best friend got really. He was really into Tooth and Nail so he started kind of actually two of my friends were really into Tooth and Nail so they started showing me stuff. I remember I think it was Blenderhead was the one that they showed me. That just blew my mind.
Speaker 2:Just that prime candidate for burnout is such a good album. It's so heavy and Bill's voice is so good, gosh, yeah, that album was really inspiring and that and really like Tooth and Nail, was on fire. I mean they had that lineup in those. Those couple of years were just unbelievable Because not only did they have the stuff that I, the guitar stuff I like, but they did have like industrial, they had Clank and they had Chatterbox and then in the and those led me to like Circle of Dust and you know all of the different things that were kind of in the Christian realm there was, oh, mortal, mortal and Folds Endura, also One of them that see, it all connects.
Speaker 1:So like Mortal and Folds Endura.
Speaker 2:That is kind of similar to Tears for Fears.
Speaker 2:There is some. There are some things you can kind of like match up there. So yeah, so, yeah, that's kind of how that. So when 238 started playing shows and they were kind of like you know, they were in the MXPX and stuff like that so it was like, okay, like we have crossover interest here. And then I was in a local band called Driven. That was just me and my, my three best friends and they're still my best friends to this day and we used to open for 238. We would play shows with them around and yeah, so I. So later on, when they went through a couple of lineup changes and I was like in the, basically in the transition from high school to college, I was working at a video store and one of the guys or two of the guys came in the store and were like, hey, we need a bass player. So, like a calm down.
Speaker 1:And what like in the in the lineup. Was this before regulate the chemicals or was this during that time?
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, it was before. It was before. It was like rate. I joined rate after they had just done a tour as a through wait was it a three piece.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was a three piece. They'd done a tour as a three piece with Jason from squad 50 on drums. You know, kevin playing guitar, chris playing bass and Chris wanted to move back to guitar because the, you know, 238 for years had been two guitars and a rise in drums. So so, yeah, they wanted to to work on a new record with Chris back on guitar. And it just like we practiced. On the first practice we wrote one of the songs on regulate, like it was. It wasn't even like a hey, you want to join the band. It was like let's, let's jam together and see how it goes.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We wrote the song from regulate the chemicals, called this town will eat you. We wrote it in the very first practice.
Speaker 1:And which is a phenomenal song. I love that song to death.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you for saying that.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, and I to me like this is where I get to fanboy for a second. I think 238, especially regulate the chemicals, is probably one of the most underrated albums, like in the genre. I really do Like I know that's, I know I know that's. You know people might think that's, I don't know. It just is to me Like I think the first time I heard coin laundry loser which in the ebb and flow of of that record is super interesting because it doesn't necessarily match with the other songs.
Speaker 1:But I think once I found out that Carava had a little part on that too and I was just getting into I went to Oral Roberts University in my undergrad for my first two years in Oklahoma and so I met a bunch of people who were kind of into music and into the scene and stuff like that and they introduced me to 238. And I think like at the time my girlfriend wasn't a Christian but she was like starting to try and get into it. So I was like what are some bands she could listen to? She was like into the get up kids and like all that stuff and 238 was a suggestion and I just fell in love with that album. In general I think it's so, so underrated, and there's times when I can't even it's like I have to be in a mood to just because I avoid that song. This time will eat you just because of the amount of emotion that it makes me feel. That's amazing. In general, yeah.
Speaker 2:I know exactly what you mean. I have. I have albums like that too, where it's like that's OK. This is like one of my favorite albums, but I have to. I don't know if I'm in the right mind for this right now.
Speaker 1:I can't handle this emotionally, right, yeah, and I think, in an interesting way, in working in the mental health field, like when I was 14 or 15, when I was 14, I think, I was fully diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder, which is something that never really truly goes away. It just kind of is more managed. So I was going through a lot of mental health struggles and, just in in a different way, sleep safely in the hands of men. Was that the full title or was just hands of men? I can't.
Speaker 2:It was hands of men.
Speaker 1:But yeah, that was the line.
Speaker 2:That was the lyric yeah.
Speaker 1:It's. It's such an interesting thing because I really, in a certain way, I know that what he's trying to convey, or what we're trying to convey, is that like you don't need, you know, like medication or you know anything like that. But there was at that point so at somebody who had been on medication for years and things like that there was just something about how it was being spoken to in a in a way that just didn't wasn't necessarily out there. So it had a good like time and place and thinking of like yeah, this really I am empathize, you know, with this to a certain extent and to me that they were talking, that the song was actually talking about some sort of mental health issue. In and of itself was was kind of new and and an interesting for me, so I really connected with that song.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember. I remember being interviewed about about that, about the album back in the day by HM magazine. Do you remember HM?
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I kind of like I mean I was only 18. I kind of spoke out a turn about what that song was about and I think I think I don't want to say it hurt his feelings. But I think Chris was a little I wasn't very eloquent at the time, so I think I kind of came up with a really that's a. That's a hard one, right, that is a hard lyrically. That's a little tricky when you're talking about medication and that's so funny. That's very interesting that you'd bring that up in your, given your profession and your background. That's really fascinating to me. And I don't think that, chris, I could see him. Probably I don't want to speak for him Sure, I could see him wanting to distance himself from just, you know, for a lot of different reasons.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think he was going, we were all going through a really big transition in life. You know that that time before you, from like high school into college age and you're kind of learning about the world, you're becoming an adult, you're figuring things out, and so I don't think he would have wanted that message to have necessarily been for anybody but himself. You know, right, like that was like his, his, his, his story with it was his story and and you know, and and and I can say you know I've been diagnosed with ADHD. I've been diagnosed with a few things and and I've taken medication for them. I've had my own kind of issues here and there with that stuff. So I think for him, you know, at the age you're coming out of, you're coming out of a time where you're you were a minor right, you didn't necessarily have a choice in the medications you're taking. This is your parents and your doctor are the experts and you're trusting them. So anyways, yeah it's.
Speaker 2:It is a very interesting line of thinking that he was doing. There was just a lot of deep thinking going on with for all of us at that time and I think it came out into the record. You know, I think Chris just is a fascinating lyricist. To this day. He is unlike anyone I've ever known and I just his. The things that are going to come out of him are always unpredictable and inspiring. And that was and and I think we all kind of had that. I remember, like as we would write the songs, I could visually see them like in a weird way. It was like I could feel them so deeply. Yeah, and you're just so full of of everything at that point in life.
Speaker 1:Right, right.
Speaker 2:What a powerful time, because I think too.
Speaker 1:Like when I was going into, I grew up in a really small town in New Jersey and New Jersey is very compact, where it's like you know, I could step foot into another town just by like literally placing one foot into it and it would all look the same, but it was like very compact and dense and we I grew up in a town that had two traffic lights but it was incredibly densely populated in the area because it's right outside New York City. But there was this kind of you know it's really interesting because a friend of mine writes about he does. He's a creative writing professor and he's been published and different stuff like that. He just had a book come out but he writes a lot of stories are based on people in our hometown and or just like based on stories like amalgamations of like small town life and the people who grew up there and kind of thinking about this town will eat.
Speaker 1:You Like it was a very relatable experience right, where you're just kind of like I have very specific, I very specific like pictures in my mind with that song when he says like if I see you across a journey, dider, I mean like New Jersey is filled with diners, right, and we used to have this one place we would go to called Matthews Diner and you'd go there and there would be in the back would be the goth kids and like just sip and coffee, smoking cigarettes like so cliche right, we used to call them the diner dogs but that was like kind of conjured, that, that image of like I don't know small town life and getting sucked into you know the cycle of of a small town and different things like that. And then I think I was researching some stuff and I I guess this time will eat. You was like a poetry book, I think, or something, or a poem that Chris had written or something. Yeah, he did.
Speaker 2:He did have a book. I don't know if it's the same. I remember when we did the tour for Regulate, we tore, we left for tour and the album wasn't out yet. It came out during the middle of the tour, I think, and he had made a. He had like handmade copies of a book he bounded himself and and, and you know, illustrated it and wrote in it.
Speaker 1:I think that must be what that was. Yeah, yeah, it was really cool have his Patreon or something like that, and he, I think, posted a picture of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, actually in that book one of the illustrations is of something called the barn ticulator, which was actually a character I'd come up with. So I had. I had a joke band with my best friends called metal spike and one of we had all these different characters that we played in the band and one was called the barn ticulator, which was this evil booty robot that made like evil, evil dance music and and.
Speaker 2:I I made a performance where I basically put my friend did like a robe and a mask and got like 10 different keyboards and he just went around the stage like acting, like he was playing with it. It's actually very much Issa back then. That is hilarious.
Speaker 1:What? Who did you guys? I mean, were you a part of the recording process with with that album?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so was that with.
Speaker 1:James.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, who was just on fire at the time. He had just finished recording. As we got there he had just finished the dashboard confessional record, which was how I met Chris, because Chris was, chris was James was recording in his apartment and this was in West Palm actually. So you've been there with Paul and Chris was just in and out of James's apartment to finish up little things. And of course, you know, also, at the time 238 was on takehold records, further, seems forever was on takehold records. So we had that you know relationship.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think they had played a ton together at that point, but we definitely did afterwards and it was great. We just hit it off. You know he, like further, played a show down there while we were in the studio with Stentsfield, which was amazing because years later I ended up when I was in moments in grace, we toured with further when they had John Bunch from Stentsfield as their vocalist. So that was amazing to kind of see that come full circle. Yeah, but, but yeah, it was great. We hit it off with him and James. Of course James Wissner's recordings are wonderful, so it was a great experience.
Speaker 1:I hear all sorts of things about or just what the experience is like, because you're in this small little apartment and he's getting this like huge sound out of things, but also it's like what? Like a one bedroom apartment or two bedroom apartment. Yeah, it was tiny.
Speaker 2:It was tiny. Yeah, we pretty much just sat there on his like. When you weren't in there recording with James, you were just sitting on his couch, like. I remember watching the thong song like a million times. That was what was on TV, like on MTV at the time was just the thong song over?
Speaker 1:and over again. Was that the inspiration for the booty nanner? Probably was.
Speaker 2:Yes, I also remember I have a great Chris Caraba story. I remember hanging out with Chris a lot at the time because you're just sitting there doing nothing a lot of the day.
Speaker 2:And I remember running to the store with him. We picked up. He picked up a copy of the new Rolling Stone and it had Sarah Michelle Geller on the cover and he and he was like a giant giant fan and he was just like, oh you know, I just going off about how much she likes her and then, like, fast forward, maybe like four years later and he's on the cover of Rolling Stone and in that article I bought it. When I saw it on the newsstand I was like that's crazy. He's on the cover. And then in the, in the freaking article, he talks about Sarah Michelle Geller.
Speaker 1:Is that was? Was that an odd experience for you? And seeing certain bands kind of blow up, because I know moments in grace also did a tour with, like my chemical romance You're seeing? Yeah, it's awesome.
Speaker 2:I like it's. It was amazing. And also when I was in moments in grace at my path cross with Chris Caraba a few times, there too, we just run I ran into him at a rest stop once he came out to a show we were playing in Brooklyn once. It was like you know, like it's, and I've seen him several times since you know he's he's got a whole whole thing going, you know, I mean, and he's playing with further again sometimes, which is amazing and it's great. I love it. I loved, I love seeing my chemical romance where actually they were like just we were touring with them right when they blew up like they. They got the final mixed copy of the record when we were on the red with them and I remember the bass player putting it on headphones for me and me being like what are you kidding me? Like this is going to be huge and it was bigger than I think any of us could have even dreamed.
Speaker 1:I remember I I told the story several times because I think it's really funny, just for myself I drove to Long Island to see Kohidin Cambria open and no, they were headlining, and this was before their second album came out. So like I was in love, obsessed with their first album and like to this day, like my screen names have like some part of the second stage, turbine blade like in it, like but I my chemical romance open for them and I I just was so impatient and like they were so all over the place that I stood at one point I was just like boo, because I was, I was not having it, I had driven a long way and I just wasn't into the music at the time and they changed a lot too really fast.
Speaker 2:I think that they, I think this. You know I don't want to speak too much about them, but I just remember when we were touring with them we were surprised by the record because it sounded nothing like them.
Speaker 2:And I don't mean that in a bad way, because we, we love them personally. We thought these are like the best guys, like there, we love being on tour with them and they are a good band. But I don't think we could quite figure it out, you know. And then it was like then we heard the record and I think that they were just they were just going through personal struggles at the time and maybe weren't didn't have their like show figured out, you know or right right, they, they, they, I don't know there's there's a lot of behind the scenes stuff that goes on with management and record labels.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I know that they were dealing with a lot of that at the time. So you know they had some personnel changes and they became a much different band after that.
Speaker 1:So they became a monster monster, huge, just like.
Speaker 2:That's like the band that when you say emo to just anybody, that's what they think of, right?
Speaker 1:And you know, coincidentally, like you said, you know you were like oh, it's great to see Karaba on on the front cover. You know what were their feelings though, seeing other bands skyrocket and kind of also being like what about me? Like was that? Was there any part of that? Because I could imagine just being like I'm happy for you.
Speaker 2:But I was just I, there was, you know, I, if anything, it wasn't that I felt. I never felt like owed anything and and for me it's always been just a really pure endeavor, because the moment I ever, the first time I ever picked up a guitar or like, I just wanted to. This is going to sound so whatever, but I just, I just wanted to make sounds that felt good to me. That that's it, and that's still where I'm at with it. Um, like, that's the most important thing to me. It's never.
Speaker 2:It never was a an idea I had to make money. It was never an idea that I, that I um, you know, of course, at a point you're like, well, I'll shit, if I could, you know, support myself and then eventually support a family, then that that'd be cool. But I, I could never look at it as as anything but just a pure expression. So, like, with things like that, I really didn't get jealous. You know, it was like, well, I was genuinely happy for Chris. Um, I thought he deserved it. You know, I loved his music and was happy for him and I mean, shoot, if he had called me up to play with them, I'm sure I would have done that.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:What a but I was just happy for him.
Speaker 1:What a I've heard Brandon evil talk about. I mean he's sick of talking about it, but you know just him being offered and him saying like no, and then you know pat passing up on that.
Speaker 2:But um, yeah, so when you were just to just to finish that question. I think it was a little different in the moments in grace years, because we were trying to make a living out of it at the time. I mean, we were, we were on Atlantic records, we, they were putting us into a big bands and you know, it was that was kind of where things shifted. But um, I, you know, basically like when that band it just gets all, it gets weird for me when it when it starts to be all about that, and I think that moments had a lot of had a really unusual path into into where we were and um, I, yeah, I don't know it's, it's, it's.
Speaker 1:You hear I mean, you wouldn't be the first person that I've heard like a lot of other bands Talk about just the when the business side starts creeping in that it it starts, it just kind of like takes a lot of the purity out of it, it puts more stress and like obviously it complicates a lot of things, like, and it just messes with a lot of things and a lot of relationships.
Speaker 2:It does, it does. And I basically got to a point where you know that playing with Deki Hidren was happening for me and I thought, well, we can just do whatever we want, we don't have to deal with all this shit. You know, like we can just record and go on tour and we don't have to deal with all this, all the weird managers and all the, you know they were at the time. They had asked us to move to Los Angeles to try to like just be seen around Los Angeles, you know, and I just thought that was such a weird.
Speaker 1:It just didn't make sense to me at the time, you know, and and we have major labels, but you know like it's different from, say, like, working with Chad or you know localized type things, where now, all of a sudden, you're on tooth and nail which is an indie label at the time. But then, yeah, I mean, there was a huge shift. You know, you start out like Giuliana theory, you get signed to Interscope or Island or something like that, and you saw all these bands kind of getting signed to major labels and it's like the business is different in that way. Yeah, you know, and then you had a collision of like digital as well, colliding in some ways too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, and MySpace was everything at that time, right, it was like how many followers you had on MySpace. Now it's well, I guess like how many listens you have on Spotify, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's a whole different, different ballgame.
Speaker 2:And I did end up working on the other side of that industry. You know, I have a lot of experience now working in marketing for music venues, and so I've been on the other side. You know and seen what that is, and and I do respect it for what it is, but I don't. I think moments in grace got there in a weird way and so I don't think it was ever going to take off the way we would have liked. You know, I think if we had had a little bit more freedom leading up to the record coming out and and and and then kind of like allowed to be ourselves yeah, I think we. But when you're made to feel like insecure about who you are, how can you get on a stage and then have other people enjoy? You know what I mean. That was, that was. It was a very. I would love to write a book about moments in grace at some point, because there was a lot of weird stuff going on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean it does. I was just going to ask you to expand on it, but it sounds like it's a very, very deep kind of.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a long conversation Sorry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I don't want you to go through the rigmarole, but do you mind if I ask a couple of questions about?
Speaker 2:it yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. So, just kind of going back Well, no, let's let's moments in grace. Was that a natural thing that started? Or, like most bands, yeah, it was. It was together.
Speaker 2:Jeremy, the singer of moments in grace, was friends with Chris from 238 and Kevin from 238. He was in our, in our friend group and was just a really well respected musician in our area and he just had an amazing voice and he wanted to put it. He had kind of like had a big trajectory change in life and wanted to focus. You know he was like a star athlete.
Speaker 2:You know he was he was going going. He played for the play football for the university of Houston and was like a star football player but didn't. But his heart was in music and he was just really like the most talented musician I knew. And so when he changed course to go to music he hit me up to kind of help him put out a record and then start a band. And so I initially just was doing it. I was kind of I had a record label called computer club records that I still kind of have. I just don't release much with it these days and so like the idea was I was going to try to find a band for Jeremy to play his music and I just ended up in it. That's. That was. That was really how it started, and our first show was we actually had the guitar player from corn playing guitar for us.
Speaker 2:It was Jeremy's best friend, a guy named Shane Gibson who was like a like a virtuoso musician. Crazy Shane is. Rest in peace. Shane is no longer with us, but Shane did also play with Jonathan Davis and playing corn for a little while.
Speaker 1:Nice.
Speaker 2:But but yeah, it was really like Jeremy is. Jeremy was the talent and I wanted to try to. Like you know, I was the good supporting player, so like I wanted to put something together for him and then it just from there it had legs. But then at a point when, when when the producer got involved, it got a little weird.
Speaker 1:So how did the producer get involved? What's?
Speaker 2:what's that during?
Speaker 2:the recording process or it's such a double in short, like we never would have had the opportunity that hadn't had. And for him, because he was the A&R that signed us and he was the producer. So it was, you know, not only, not not only, yeah, yeah, that. So so we would have never had any of those opportunities and we had a lot of opportunities and shoot like the like the record label Give us tour support. They bought us a van, they bought us some gear, like they, they, you know we weren't like we were still working jobs and and we were still working jobs and just getting by, but like they, as far as they funded the band, you know, and that was like incredible. So also, like recording with the producer was amazing, like his studio was great and and you know he's a very talented person.
Speaker 2:But I just think that you know, he was a young guy too at the time, trying to make sense of it and really, like you could I think you could equate the like emo explosion. It was like very similar to the grunge explosion. Yeah, you know what it was like. Nirvana hit and then all of a sudden, every major labels snatching up every grunge band in the in the fucking world.
Speaker 2:Right right right, and that was what we were very much basically you know our producer was. He was somebody who'd recorded a lot of big records in emo and post hardcore and and was just getting bigger and bigger, and so they gave him the the, the room to kind of like do his own label, and that's, that's how it all started.
Speaker 1:So and what? What did he find you guys? Did you guys find him?
Speaker 2:So we played a show. We played a show in Alabama with Branstad and the Liars Academy and there was zero, zero people at the show.
Speaker 1:Oh man.
Speaker 2:But the but the. The guys in both of those bands really liked us a lot. Like they were like on the stage, like shaking our hands when we finished. It was like, oh okay, like they really liked the show. So we gave them our demo and one of the guys from Liars Academy was in the hardcore band Strike Anywhere, and Strike Anywhere were in the studio recording their record. And that's how the producer heard it. He was, and I'll say his name is Brian Brian McTernan. Brian heard our record through them and just reached out to me he, he, I think. When he reached out to me he said he'd listened to it over a hundred times and he just, you know, wanted to get in touch with us and he ended up flying down and meeting with us and we started talking about what we could do together.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I, I mean, maybe this is real relatable, maybe this is not, because I had a friend who was in a band and he went to work with a very well known producer in the studio and I think very vaguely and I don't want to say his name or anything like that, but like he kind of came out of that kind of traumatized my friend did like with the way that this producer worked and the way that like he deconstructed or just like pushed or you know, maybe some of that insecurity you know about like the music you're creating, or you know it was not. I mean, it really fucked with his head. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean I think there are definitely plenty of producers out there that go really in a weird direction with it. I mean I know I remember reading about Ross Robinson working with at the drive in and you know, and a couple of other bands like that, and just that he would put them through hell to get these performances out of them. And I mean you listen to a relationship of command at the drive in and I mean you can hear that. I mean that's a really powerful record. But you know at what cost, like what, did you have to put those, those, those people through to get that? I mean right.
Speaker 2:Maybe it's worth it, maybe it's not, I don't know.
Speaker 2:There's there's a there's a gray area and when it comes to producing and kind of, what are your goals with producing, like what you know? And I think that's where it got weird, with us too, I think with Brian it was like he told us right out away he was going to be a fifth member of the band, like not even like I'm your producer, like I mean, I'm basically in your band if we're going to work together, because I really want to have my hands on this project. Yeah, and that was cool because you know how could we not? He'd recorded some of my favorite records and he was seemed like a really nice guy. So of course I was going to be open to that. But at a point I think it's like, well, okay, where do I draw the line? Like what's an overstep, you know? Like what, what am I or what? And I'm sure for him, like what am I trying too hard to force out of people? You know like yeah.
Speaker 1:So kind of going back to 238 stuff, like you know, you guys were never the hugest right. I certainly think you guys were incredibly talented when, when for you, did you know your time might be done? Or did you know how did that kind of happen? Or even like, what was your time like? Touring, yeah with the band.
Speaker 2:So it was. It was great. I mean, those are amazing memories. You know, ultimately, even though that feels like that was such a definitive era of my life and I still think regulate the chemicals is my favorite album I've ever played on Still, I was 18 years old and I'm 42. And I still think that's. I played on a ton of records.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:That was just a special time and this touring is special. I mean, you're at. You're at an age like I can't look back on those years with anything but fondness and there were some tough parts of it. But you're a kid working things out with other kids. You're in a. You're a kid with other or teenagers or the other teenagers driving across the country in a van.
Speaker 1:And you know, trying to figure it out World, that your fingertips, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:It was great. I mean, chris, chris worked really hard. He booked those tours himself. You know he had a lot invested in it and I can see now as a as a as a grownup that he was. He was putting in the hard work for for that band more. You know, like there there's, there are always going to be members in the band, or there were other bands, there were members in the band or they're working harder than others, you know, and and that was his baby he worked really hard for it and I'm sure that he enjoys doing his solo thing now because it's like he's creating that world.
Speaker 2:You know, like he, he, he is a hard worker and we got to reap the benefits of that. You know we got to go on this tour and and really like to be honest, like the touring with 238, I would and so we were the opening band and the events in grace week. We toured with a lot of big bands and did a lot of sold out tours, but it wasn't for us. You know we were the opening band and with 238, the shows were great. I mean, we did get to play all over the country for people that liked the record and unfortunately I left the band before you know, before people really knew regulate the chemicals. They knew the earlier albums, which I also loved, but I missed the boat on being able to play shows with people knowing those songs know I would have. I wish I would have had that chance.
Speaker 1:I've seen some of the videos that you have where you're playing regulate songs on there. But I mean, was that before? Because they re-released regularly, right?
Speaker 2:Those yeah, I think the videos you're talking about are probably us playing in Fort Walton, but the record wasn't out, or if it was out, it hadn't been out long enough. And also at the time our music scene in the panhandle was on a dip. We were on a downward turn where, when I was in 238 playing shows locally, the music scene wasn't that great. I mean, really like playing out of town was a lot better for us at the time. It was kind of like our scene had gone through that transition, that downward transition of like, ok, nothing's happening. So so, yeah, anyways, yeah, it was. It was touring with them was was fantastic. I wasn't in the band till the end, but I was still friends with them, you know, up until they stopped playing. And Ben, who took my place after I left, is a good friend of mine too. He's fucking amazing musician. So they, you know, and I love that last album they did too. That was really good.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I mean, I think I saw I saw, man, definitely the writing on the wall about that band ending when I actually got to see them play. And granted, this is like just my recollection of it they played at a place called the Java House in Tulsa and had sort of a local band ish they were from Texas open for them but there was like nobody there and is what I remember, and I remember that Chris was really sick and they all looked miserable on stage. They did, they looked like, they looked like they had been put through the ringer. And here they're playing in Oklahoma to like you know, 10 people. And I just remember feeling so bad, like I'm so thankful that I got to see them play, but that was when, yeah, you should be living ahead, you know, had come out and whatnot. But yeah, I remember I was like I don't see these guys last so much longer, like I can't, I can't imagine being.
Speaker 2:I think I think my scale for for things is so skewed Like I probably would be, like I bet you, chris or Jeremy, would have a completely different answer for this than me because for me, like playing shows for like four people in the middle of nowhere, I love it. Some of my favorite show memories have been shows like that and some definitely some of the best moments in Grace and 238 shows were shows like that. Yeah, and still like, as Issa, like I'm doing these shows now and I'm still having that experience. I guess I, you know, I guess for me, like, it's more about OK, the people that are there are really connected and I really connected with them, and we, we shared that energy, you know, and and the size of the crowd never really mattered.
Speaker 1:I can't say that that's how they felt. But I was trying to put my like. I was like thinking in my shoes because in my mind, you know, these albums and stuff like that, the experiences mean so much to me, right?
Speaker 2:So you're looking at it in terms of you're like these guys should be fucking huge you know, you know like, or whatever you know and I know exactly what you mean and I also know what you mean and the darkness that, the shroud of darkness that probably was over 238. I mean, to be honest, like that band had a lot of struggles. There were a lot of things that they went through over the years. Before I ever joined the band, their bass player was was killed in a van accident coming back from a festival. They they had flipped their van before I joined a touring. They flipped their van on ice and that was absolutely terrifying for them, to the point where, when I was in the band, chris was the only one that could drive because he just couldn't feel safe with it. And I totally understood it.
Speaker 2:Like that, like you go through something like that, I mean I can't even, especially what, having lost Kevin years before in that car accident, I mean that must have just been terrifying for them. So you know, and there it is hard, you're, you're poor, you don't know if you're going to be able to buy yourself food the next day or make gas to get to the next city, like, yeah, and I mean there were struggles, you know. And also person, like being in bands I mean you've been in plenty of bands, right Like it's it's, it's, it's hard, you know, I mean, there were definitely times where we got mad at each other and you know, I said oh, I'm quitting, I'm going to, I'm going to go back to school. You know, I'm going to go go finish college, you know it just yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's also why I'm at 42. I'm glad to be playing a solo, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it always kind of seems like.
Speaker 1:I mean, I know that Chris has done a lot of you know, he's been in music a lot, pass that, a lot of solos, a lot of solo stuff, a lot of whatever it. Always I always got the impression that like and maybe this, maybe it's not true, but I always got the impression of just like seeing him or just like that like two, thirty eight stuff he doesn't particularly like to touch, like like it's maybe not necessarily a, a, a think he likes to spend any time with it.
Speaker 2:I again, I don't want to put any words into Chris's mouth, but I can just tell you what I know from my time with them, which was, you know, when I, when I started playing in the band, I think, chris, I think we were, and I think we were all feeling this, or most of us were feeling like getting away from the Christian aspect of the band. You know, but at that point you've already released records on Take Hold. You've already, you know, you were already booked for Cornerstone that year, like there was there's all kinds of things. So I think you're you're kind of like, well, if, what do you do?
Speaker 2:You know, because when your faith waivers and you're in a scene like that, like you know, so I don't know, I don't know where he was, but I do remember that being something that we talked about at the time, like kind of like what, how do we do this? You know, and also, I think one of the very first shows I played with them was some kind of Christian venue and then we agreed after that show that we were going to try to like scale back on that. You know, just, it's, it's hard, you know. I think that that's probably why there isn't as much of a Christian music scene. Maybe there is, and I just don't know about it. But that's when you tie your faith into the art that you're making.
Speaker 1:It's like kind of tricky because, like you grow up, you change, you develop and I mean, and then it becomes like heresy, right, and people judge you and you know there's this whole swath of judgment that comes. You know it's like if you say a swear word like, oh my God, all of a sudden it's like are they even Christian? And it's like we never wanted to be Christian in the first place. Like you know, we were just playing music.
Speaker 2:Like when a tooth and nail re-release that album, they changed the song title from the Bastard Son and the spoiled one to just the spoiled one.
Speaker 1:Oh really.
Speaker 2:You can't say bastard Right.
Speaker 1:You know, and like I had friends were in a band and did some touring and stuff like that and they were Kind of ostracized from both worlds, like they weren't Christian enough for the Christian music scene and they weren't not Christian enough for kind of like the Even, like some of like the tooth and nail scene or like militia group like that. Yeah, we're bands didn't want to tour with them because they did have, you know, certain faith leadings in some of the songs you know. And that was a very weird experience, I think, for them and frustrating too, because like they were great, their band was great they're. The band was called Edison Glass and but not for them yeah, phenomenal musicians.
Speaker 1:James was my roommate. They played background on like an EP I did, and you know they're.
Speaker 2:They were. Were they playing around the same time as two, thirty eight or moments in grace? I feel like I met.
Speaker 1:It's possible. They got somebody and Tom Fest. They got signed to EMI right around Two thousand five Ish.
Speaker 2:I definitely heard about them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're great, great guys, great bands have a lot of love them. I think next week I'm talking to Joe, their drummer, but there, that was the kind of thing for them. You know, it's like they were just kind of like I think they tried to get one to get on a tour with Copeland, but Copeland was like no, we don't want to play with these guys, like because they're too like Christian, you know type thing, and like so even getting on certain tours for them was just like really hard. That's interesting. That's an interesting that's yeah.
Speaker 2:The only time I ever saw Copeland was they were opening for Switchfoot on tour. We there's. The very first show of our tour with my chemical romance was in, I think, in Boston, and we were playing at a venue that had two stages, like two. They could have two shows at once and the small stage was a bench seven fold my chemical romance, us and darkest Wait, not Dr Stour Beloved and on the main stage was Switchfoot and Copeland Interesting.
Speaker 1:Interesting. So it's kind of funny because I never thought, like the the shows that I went to, that Copeland would be and I really love that their first album. They never seem to like fit in with the bands that they were on tour with in certain ways Like so, yeah, I just remember them telling me or at least somebody one of them. They remember something that like they got a message back from their manager and they were like yeah, they don't, they don't want to do it, like yeah, yeah, which is just hard you know, to make any sort of breakthrough and they deserved it.
Speaker 1:Like that, like their music is really really, really, really good. Still I listen to their music to the same and I'm like this is done really well, but it's it's in that kind of like the scene it was changing a little bit at that time too, you know, I guess like for you, Did you know it was time to leave to 38 or was it like a band decision or like what did the exit look like? I got kind of upset that on tour about the band.
Speaker 2:I got kind of upset on tour about about just something happened at a show, and I think I also think that, like you know, growing up, like I had placed some expectations on myself, you know, and I don't think that I I think I was a bit grappling with with the idea of being like a starving artist, you know, like, yeah, like I didn't feel like that was an option for me, Like I felt like it always felt like, you know, and maybe this is just like my upbringing, you know, but I felt like, well, that's just something you do for fun for a while and then you go put on your big boy pants and you get a job and you start a family, and so I think that that's kind of like For me.
Speaker 2:It was a bit of like, oh, I felt a sense of urgency to be able to pursue my education at the same time, you know, and not only play music. And the school I wanted to go to wasn't in, wasn't in our hometown, you know. So that was that was kind of why I really why I left, you know, and and and they were able to pick up seamlessly with Ben, you know, because Ben was, he was a friend of the band, somebody that was around a lot, that that we were close to, so it was easy for him to step in and just take that spot. I mean really again also the drummer they had at that time, James Dietrich oh, that guy is he's. I keep in touch with him. He's an amazing drummer, super under the radar guy that's always made cool music. There were just a lot of good people in our area that they could use to carry on the band. So because they had everybody in the panhandle of them, you know, I mean they just were a beloved hometown band that everyone respected.
Speaker 1:So what was your favorite band your favorite group of guys or our band at the time? What was like your favorite band that you toured with in all of your musical career?
Speaker 2:As a member of, or or or band that I actually like that we were on the road with on the road with yeah.
Speaker 2:OK, I mean I'm going to cheat and give it, give a two parter. I mean the easy answer is Decahedron, because I ended up playing with them. You know it was because Decahedron was just Jason and Jason Hamaker and Shelby Sinka from Frodis and I was a massive Frodis fan, you know again, tooth to nail. You know like that was that era where I started really like getting to punk rock and like to me like Frodis was like they were a band I would.
Speaker 2:I would look at pictures of on the early internet and be like whoa, they look crazy, like that glasses on and he's freaking out. They were just a really intriguing band to me and I loved that they they tied in all the imagery and storylines and stuff to their music. So so that was that. But I feel like it's a cheat answer because I played with them. So like if I had to pick one band that I was never in Plainsman was taken for stars that was the band that I was. I loved touring with them. They were just like at the embodiment of just raw energy every night and they were like I just love their music and I love what they represent and I think most bands that I've ever toured with them would probably have that answer.
Speaker 1:Are they? Were the members X? Were they X like mineral or something, or what?
Speaker 2:No, but they. But when they started they were on T-Bellm records, so they were kind of in that like that group. But then they set themselves apart with their like really quickly, with like a more aggressive kind of vibe, right, right, yeah.
Speaker 1:And so you know I don't want to keep you too long, garret. It's been an hour and a half but you've got other life things going on. But you know, like what are you? I always kind of end with like what are you excited about now? Like what, what is being a 42 year old dad of three kids? Look like Like what, what gets you to wake up in the morning and what do you find joy in now?
Speaker 2:Oh, I mean for sure my family. You know, I mean easy, easy answer. Like I love being a dad, I love having a family, you know, like my wife and kids are everything and and it's just so fulfilling to me. So so that's, you know, I feel really fulfilled there. And then musically, you know the fact that I mean being a musician when you have so many other commitments is hard and you can't really, you know it's hard to find time for it. That's fair for everyone in your life, you know, and I'm really lucky that my family has been supportive of me doing it. Yeah, because I also kind of realized a few years ago that I really needed to have that outlet. You know I can't not have it, it has to be there. It just it just makes me feel complete, you know, and playing shows and being part of something you know a music community is just really so, and creating just and just bizarre stuff.
Speaker 2:So that's kind of where where I'm at with it and so, yeah, and I feel, just like I mentioned earlier, like I feel super inspired. Florida has a really great supportive music scene. I mean, we have everybody from the old punk scene here not everybody, but you know, there's still people, like figures from from the old punk scene and then you've also got just such a good underground, bizarre electronic and experimental and and and Gothic like kind of thing going on and there's just pockets in each city of people that are creating really inspiring stuff. You know, like I'm really right now I'm really intrigued by the idea of like a, a one man like an, like a SP 404 sampler based punk band. You know, like like that's kind of what I'm doing with Issa and, and I see other people doing that. I've always loved the idea of samplers because you can kind of use them in so many different ways, and the way I use it is like making a collage, you know, and that's kind of like there's an improv element to it. So every the shows never feel stale because I can kind of switch things up and go in a different direction and just based on how I'm feeling. You know, and and I love seeing other other people kind of innovating and trying to come up with new ways to use these instruments. So so yeah, I just feel like there's a lot of, a lot of and also long answer.
Speaker 2:I love seeing the, the way that younger people are are reinterpreting, you know, genres that have passed. You know like there's like a whole emo scene going on now and some of the stuff I've heard out of that it's been phenomenal. You know, like that's so, like I'm just one of the people that I never get tired of hearing your music. I'm like, you know, I don't care what your age is. You know like I can still appreciate younger people's music and I like to hear. You know, I think some of the music criticism I hear is like, oh, that just sounds like whatever happened years ago. But I feel like with genres like shoegaze and just like every genre, I feel like there's worlds left to explore and expand upon. So like, to me it's everything.
Speaker 1:He gets everything right. It's like so we go. Well, that sounds exactly like Tiersha Fears or like that. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's because we're you know. Instead, it becomes this criticism of like well, they're trying to sound like taking back Sunday, or they're trying to sound like, you know, promise ringer, like whatever, and you're like well, yeah, of course right, because they're inspired by those bands and therefore they end up, you know, making music that's inspired by that, you know right, and if they can bring something new to it, bring their own personality to it, bring their own thoughts to it and their own spin on it.
Speaker 2:I mean, you're left.
Speaker 1:You know a lot of times are going to be left with something interesting, so yeah, I think you're one of the first person people that I've talked to that it seems like you have a really good connection with the younger generation as far as music goes and in terms of just like being asked to play and like. Is that for you more, is it? How do you approach that relationship? Is it more of like like you're the older guy in the room who's got his experience and you know they're kind of looking to you in some ways or like what is that? Are you just like we're equals, man Right.
Speaker 2:Right. The key to this working for me temporarily is that I can't grow a beard. Still, I'm 42. I can't grow a beard. I think I'm a lot younger than I am. People never know how old I am, like I'm. You know, I almost always people think I'm in my 20s, you know, late 20s or something. So so yeah. So I don't think that I come across as threatening to the younger people that I play shows with, which is good.
Speaker 2:God, I'm not a threat, I promise, but but but yeah, I also think that they're used to like older people kind of shitting on what they do. You know they're kind of like or not caring, you know, and to show that somebody that has experience, cares and you know like, is interested in what they're doing, and you know, I think that it's just good vibes, you know like it's, it's it's and and if I can and I love to be able to give advice where I can or to be supportive how I can so it's it's.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, like that. That to me is. And also, you know I've got I've got my kids coming up right there. You know my son is, is really into drumming, he loves cursive and sunny day, real estate and you know. So you know I just. And also marketing is another thing. I've worked a lot of music marketing and so like I just have to kind of, when you do that, you have to really really really create a. You have to kind of understand, like, what different age groups of people are looking for. And I and I love that's beautiful Like I love understanding that, okay, people in this age range, they like they love they want to hear classic rock or younger bands that are inspired by classic rock. You know, like there's different things that appeal to different generations and so like I kind of just developed an appreciation for all of them.
Speaker 1:And last, last question here who's an artist still living that you have not seen, that you really want to see?
Speaker 2:I would love to see death grips play. I still haven't seen death grips. Yeah, I think there's probably somebody. I will think about this question later and be like oh.
Speaker 2:I should have said that there's going to be someone that hits me and I'm going to freak out that I didn't say it. But I mean, for right now, death grips pops to mind. They have played here a time or two, but they don't. I don't think they tore that often and I just I love their approach. I think that that's like to me that they're like the most punk band. That's not not that there's a contest, but like they are so punk to me Like they just don't sound like anything else and they just do it completely their own way and always have, and I love that. So and they and also they, just they. They bring all of their energy to their performance and that like playing live for me, like if you come see me play as Istia, like that's that's what I'm, that's where I'm at too, like I just want to bring everything I have and leave it there, you know. So that's those guys.
Speaker 1:Where? Where can people listen to your music?
Speaker 2:Bandcamp, Istia I S Y A dot bandcampcom, or you know, it's on all the streaming services too. And then I have a. I will admit this was a unlikely project to be one that I'm playing live because it's kind of a difficult listen, but so the old stuff is really abrasive and I and kind of hard to listen to it, Challenging, I'll say. I think the new stuff, that I have a new record that's going to be out by the end of the year called trance, and I think it'll be, it's a, it's a concept record, a la like curse of domestica or Pedro the lion you know, or Genesis lamb lies down on Broadway Like I love concept or album.
Speaker 2:So this is a concept album about hypnosis and kind of ties in. You know what we're going through with our phones and screens and media so and I think it's going to be a little more listenable than some of the other stuff. So hopefully people will check it out if they hear this and are interested.
Speaker 1:Yeah, awesome. Well, jake, thank you so much for taking the time. I really, really appreciate it, and for responding right away too, because that was that was really nice.
Speaker 2:And sorry that I missed that. I missed our other date. I totally missed. I'm terrible.
Speaker 1:No, it's fine, it's it's. I relate Um both have.
Speaker 2:ADD. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1:And there's a medication shortage.
Speaker 2:Uh, so I heard about that yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, but, yeah, thanks again. I, I really appreciate it and, um, I will let you know when I'm going to get the episodes out. I'm pretty slow at rolling them out just because I have a business and you know the kids and stuff like that. Um, so, yeah, yeah, thanks again. I appreciate it. Oh, thank you, thank you, awesome. Well, that about does it for this episode. If you like the podcast, please consider subscribing. You can find us on all major podcasting platforms and on Instagram at the scene cast. Again, thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.
