Welcome to the Scene
Welcome to the Scene takes a candid and human look at the musicians of the indie rock/ emo scene of the early 2000s. Host Jeremy Houtsma, Licensed Mental Health Counselor, presents a free-flowing conversation that tends to go in inspiring and reflective paths that touch on a myriad of topics including mental health. The result is an intimate look at not just the music created but also the stories, history, and growth of these individuals. It's a whirlwind listen of nostalgia, inspiration, and insights into who these bands and people were and where they are now.
Welcome to the Scene
Unraveling the Power of Community and Music with Jeremy Gould
Strap in as we explore the intricate dance between faith and music, a narrative that is deeply personal to Jeremy. He speaks candidly about the challenges and triumphs he faced in merging these two worlds, providing a unique perspective that's as enlightening as it is engaging.
We also talk about Jeremy's Podcast "The Rumors Are True!" The podcast, marinated in his rich background and seasoned by the relationships he has nurtured over the years, is a testament to Jeremy's unwavering belief in the power of communities and the transformative ability of music. Whether you're an avid music lover, an ardent podcast enthusiast, or someone seeking a slice of life in the Midwest music scene, this episode has something for everyone. Don't miss out on this harmonious blend of music, faith, and life experiences that are sure to strike a chord.
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Hello everyone and welcome to the scene. I'm your host, jeremy Houtsma. Today I have a very special guest, jeremy Gould. Now we talk a lot of with the bands and about the bands on here, but what we tend to overlook at just in general in this scene is the one person who really, really matters, and that is the promoter. Jeremy was a promoter in the Midwest who booked hundreds of bands, so I get to talk with Jeremy today and get a little glimpse into what that was like. We also talk about his personal life and also what he's up to now.
Speaker 1:Jeremy runs a podcast called the Rumors Are True, which is a fantastic podcast and kind of in the same vein as mine. Jeremy has been super helpful in helping me actually get this podcast off of the ground, including getting me in touch with the different bands and also just being a fan of the podcast, and I really appreciate him. So, with that said, welcome to the scene. What's up man? Hey, sorry man, I, my cleaners, came in and just completely cleaned, rearranged, put things in different drawers and things that I no worries, dude, yeah, so thanks for bearing with me.
Speaker 1:I really appreciate that.
Speaker 2:Of course.
Speaker 1:Time difference always messes me up too.
Speaker 2:Same here.
Speaker 1:I don't know how many people you do on the West Coast, because I do most of mine on East Coast bands, so it's always trying to like oh, totally. Put things in one.
Speaker 2:No, I get it. I have all over and so trust me, I'm yeah. I have to put it in my phone multiple times, so I totally get it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so for me it's just more of like a free flow conversation. I just kind of want to get into. It Sounds like you were a show promoter, so yeah yeah, that's pretty rad, justin. And so first like, where are you based out of?
Speaker 2:I'm in Jacksonville, florida, currently. So I grew up all over, my dad was a pastor and so I went to shows in multiple states and yeah, so I live currently in Jacksonville and I haven't booked a show in a while, but in the Midwest is kind of when I did most of my stuff in Wichita, kansas.
Speaker 1:So oh, okay, where were you?
Speaker 2:You just moved all over the place in terms because yeah, well, yeah, I, my dad, moved around because of the job, so I went to shows anywhere I was living at the time, and so I got to a point when I was in Wichita where I stopped. I didn't want to drive three hours for a show, so I started to. I started cold calling booking agents and the rest is history.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like what besides that, motivation was there, was. Was there any type of scene in Wichita?
Speaker 2:You know, yes, there was, there was. It's weird because there was all these like little DIY punk, rock, metal, whatever shows going on which was cool. They and everyone that's doing it was fantastic good people. And I actually intentionally started it just because my shows, at least because I just wanted to book bands that I thought were cool and, to be honest with you, I didn't expect to go as far as I did. I always loved going to shows and I always loved just soaking in like the tour manager or the you know just the little things that most people don't kind of pick up on, I guess, if you will, yeah, so I always kind of was intrigued by the you know everyone's like I want to be in a band.
Speaker 2:Well, I didn't want to be in a band, I wanted to be backstage, but I didn't want to be, you know I didn't want to be in the band, I couldn't play anything, and so to me it was nerdy of me, but I loved the whole. I loved that whole background stuff and to me I just throw, I felt like I thrived on at least. So there was a scene, but you know, I definitely was part of the cultivation of that scene a lot and so it was cool because kids would come out and just go to shows and it was like what were they doing before?
Speaker 2:Not much, I mean, there was you know, it was just kind of one of those things that I was really grateful for the time I did it. And I look fondly on it, like back fondly on it for sure, and I miss it from time to time. I don't miss some mislead and money, but I definitely miss it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah that it seems like the game has changed completely anyway.
Speaker 1:So it seems like it seems like it would be incredibly difficult to try and book little shows, and it's pretty interesting to me because a lot of the past few conversations I've had have been more around about like what today's youth are kind of into and just like, does a scene exist and if so, like or if not like, how do we encourage one? Like, I was talking to Steve Lea Mose from American Football and he was drumming for them and he's a professor I think it was UC Boulder and so he was kind of talking about with his students that he doesn't. He's like what I was doing when I was, you know, playing around up in Chicago area was, you know, we'd go to two different shows, throw different shows, and there was like just a whole wide array of different bands and things like that. And he's like I just don't see that anymore, yeah, and that. He's like I don't know what these kids do on the weekend. I was like, well, probably drink, yeah, but I would agree with that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but other than that. So it's just really interesting because I think you know the scene as it was and when did you start booking shows, Like what year?
Speaker 2:It was probably 2004 is when I started. I always went to shows and I always was like involved somehow, like managing a band here and there or like helping band set up shows and stuff. But my first show, my friend Chris and I we put together a little local show of bands in Wichita and it went off really well and I didn't again, I didn't expect it. It was just a you know, probably 200, 150, 200 kids. It packed in this little awesome place I think it's called Paraphonelia. It was like a dress store but below basement was like a venue, essentially, oh, that's right, and yeah, it was really cool and it went really well. And so that kind of started the thought in my head, oh, I probably could do this and my friend Chris had moved away. So, and, granted, we just kind of did it because we were friends and we're like let's just do something cool. And then I, yeah, I called, I called, emailed.
Speaker 2:Well, I was trying to get the I don't know if you know, remember the solid state tour. Yeah, back in the day it was like under oath, beloved hasty day, all that. Yeah, I wanted to try to get that because I knew they were playing like Oklahoma, Tulsa, oklahoma, which is about two and a half, three hours from where I was living, and I emailed the agent and I was like I love the book to show, I think, and at the time in my mind I thought it would do good. But I didn't, I didn't know realistically what it would. You know if it would or not. And they wrote me back and I said, well, that tour is booked up, but do you want hasty day by themselves? And I was like, sure, absolutely Nice. So that was the first show I ever booked on my own and good I was going to say.
Speaker 1:that makes me wonder, because I was going to O R U at the time in probably around 2004. So solid state tour, I'm wondering. It makes me wonder where they came through what venue.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it might not have been Tulsa, might have been Oklahoma City. To be honest, I really don't remember. I just remember it was. I was like in my mind. I was like that's only three hours away.
Speaker 1:That'll be easy.
Speaker 2:That was just the closest thing I saw.
Speaker 1:I mean that is like that. That is the heyday of a lot of stuff, so totally.
Speaker 2:I mean that whole tour. I mean I've talked to a couple guys that were on that and they were saying that was like the most formative tour they'd ever been on and at the time it was, it was fresh and like all those bands like wound up just getting massive and yeah, it was cool. Ironically, I never actually got to go to that tour. I mean I wanted to but I had a wife and kids and it was like I couldn't just go and that's again part of the reason I was like I want to book shows so I can, number one, see the bands I want to see and to get paid. You know, that was my mindset.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I got that haste today show and I booked a little like VFW hall it was called Eagles Lodge, it's real historical in Wichita for shows and I didn't know what to expect and 400 kids showed up and it was that's crazy. Absolutely it was pandemonium for real. Like I feel like in that moment, in that night or that day, I was like I've got something good, like I, it just was palpable. I don't know what. I just was like I think I can do this. So, yeah, that was it.
Speaker 1:What, what kinds? You kind of like you said you were a, you were a pastor's kid and you know really just what was that like growing up? Like, first of all, what denomination was it? It?
Speaker 2:was a suddenly some God, yeah, some leads charismatic Pentecostal, whatever you want to call it grew up in in church. It's funny because lately my wife and I have been talking about it and she grew up in a charismatic as well. But mine was pretty rigid and pretty, you know, can't wear shorts and in the sanctuary Can't wear a hat. Sure, you know that kind of world. And she lived in a different world where it wasn't a big deal. And so it's funny because we talked lately and it's like I know there's good people in that world and I know there's good things in that world. But looking back on it, the older I get I'm 45 now and I look back on like that is so backwards, like it's so absurd, and I'm still a Christian personally and you know, I went through my my little. I stepped away from the church for quite a while, came back to it and I, you know, I have a personal relationship currently with God and so to me it means everything to me.
Speaker 2:But growing up was hard. It was very a lot of closed-mindedness, obviously, a lot of humanity. You know people are human and they they screw up and they are selfish and they want what they want and you know I was. I used to go to a church that my dad worked at and they would. There was a. There's a venue in Jacksonville called Murray Hill Theater. It's amazing, it's historic, you know, saw everyone there in the 90s and Christian Avenue. I guess if I should say and our church? It's a church, that's a community.
Speaker 2:I guess if I should say and our church would preach against that place, which I thought was insane because it's like so you don't want your kids to be around like-minded people and like-minded things, and even if it's music, you don't understand. I mean it's, it's like anything else is like a different generation, a different decade, a different, you know. And so to me it was like literally insane that that happened. But I think over time that church wound up changing in some way, shape or form, you know, maybe not so much, you know, changing as in oh, bow down to it.
Speaker 2:Or you know, oh, it was just. I think they just realized, wow, you know, this isn't so bad, right, you know, and you know the whole punk rock world, if you will, I think, is what really was the catalyst for them thinking oh, these kids are going to be, you know, off the walls and drugs and all that. And it's like, man, I just wanted to hear a punk rock band or a rock band that's just saying good tunes and they're thinking about Jesus. Cool, if they didn't, I don't care, I just want to see tunes, you know.
Speaker 1:So yeah, that's really awesome, I mean. I mean I kind of similar story. I grew up as some of these have got as well In New Jersey and charismatic as well. But as some of these have got is kind of all over the map. Yeah, you know what I mean. Like you have like super conservative and then you have like not so conservative.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, so it was. It was difficult when I went to college, like if I was the, the AG church that was down and right outside of Philly, where, where I was going to school. At one point I switched schools like several times. They were like yeah, no, no shorts, like girls had to wear skirts.
Speaker 2:It was just, it was bizarre. Yeah, no, it is bizarre, you know.
Speaker 1:But, but kind of similarly to it. You know, as I, you talk more and more with people in in the scene, especially, you know, solid state bands and things like that and and seeing people kind of struggle with their own faith or leave the faith there's, there's something with even all the the harm, there's a just personally, there's a part of me that, like I disagree very, very much with a lot of what the people I grew up with and you know, believe. Now, however, like I, I cannot deny how they love me into being the person that I am, like you know, and so for some people there's a lot of like black and white where it's like if I discard the church, I have to discard everything. Yeah, and to me that's been a really hard thing. I'm a mental health therapist, so black and white thinking is like incredibly hard for me to wrap my head. Like I understand it, but I can't live in that world because I have to live in like that. The world is full of like a lot of gray.
Speaker 1:So it's just, it's just interesting because I mean also some of my first experiences with, you know, punk and post-hardcore and all those things was to the church, you know, and so, like I remember our youth group was divided into like the preppy kids and then totally, and then the punk kids, right, and I mean that was that was the first time I was introduced to like MXPX, and it was just funny because people were like, oh, mxpx, like they're not really Christian. There was this kind of stigma with it, you know, and like I have to credit them, you know, like with helping me kind of start down a different path in music and essentially opening me up to all these different bands too, yeah, you know, and being able to get into the, into the scene. So it's, I don't know, it's a double edged sword and I think there's, I think you need to have like a safe place to kind of deconstruct and reconstruct, you know, absolutely, and people sometimes don't have that. So it's just it's. It's really interesting, like you said, just like looking back and seeing you know like, wow, some of that stuff was really messed up and yep, what, what can I? What can I take away?
Speaker 2:that there's like meaning to for myself, you know absolutely yeah, and yeah, it's one of those things too that, like you know, the older you get your, you know, your perspective is different and you know the fact that you know I, I guess I've never like lost my faith per se. I just didn't want anything to do with church, I didn't want to be with you know. Just the whole facade and the whole like, oh, you know, why aren't you in church or why aren't you? You know, I was like, you know, because I don't want to go to church right now, currently and again now I'm in a healthy church. I feel like it's a healthy church. Let's go say that's, that's the key, yeah, healthy.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's a healthy church and healthy people and a healthy city group and like I just have people breathing life into me and it's normal, you know, it's normal people. It's like we go have beers we have. We go smoke cigars we go, you know, drink bourbon. We're normal people, messy people, like anyone else, and it's like, you know, to me it's like I feel like this is the way. Maybe God intended it.
Speaker 2:Again, I'm not, you know, I don't know, but I do know my heart and I know the people that I, that I do church with. I know a lot of their hearts and you know, we're not too far off the beaten path from each other. It's like we get each other, we understand each other and, you know, I love that I'm in this place in my life currently, because I feel like I maybe had to go through that world to go, because, you know, I grew up a pastor's kid and it's like that's just what you do. You believe in God, that's what you do, and you know what I had to get. I had to step back and be like, why do I believe in God? Like why do I believe in these things? And I doubt is to me a beautiful thing. In a weird way. It's not that you know, I want to doubt things, but I think, doubting that you know. Then you search, you research, you do either.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry, I cut off, oh you're fine. I disappeared.
Speaker 2:You know, I needed to come to that conclusion myself, like anyone else on their own journey. And you know, to me this is what works for me and this is what I feel like, personally, god did for me, personally, like I, he opened doors, like insane doors, and even with my podcast, it's like, yeah, I know a lot of these people, yeah, I've worked with them, but I'm so grateful and super humbled to like be like I don't know, I'm just super grateful for it all and I don't ever want to lose sight of that. And I do feel like, for me, I'm giving people a soapbox to tell their stories and that's really all I care about. People are like you can make money. I'm like Listen, yeah, that would be great, but that's not my goal. My goal is to have an incredible conversation with an incredible artist and, you know, be a part of that.
Speaker 2:And, again, it's kind of like the book and shows being in the background. I don't care about me. I could care less about me. I mean, I care about me, but I don't care. I'm not trying to get the glory, that's what I'm trying to get, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you know the conversation is is is paranoid for me. So, yeah, man, it's been a wild ride, but I'm really grateful and happy in the place that I am. In my life I have a. I just got remarried six years ago to an incredible woman and you know she's, she's amazing and you know I'm just in a great spot. My kids are adults now, which is cool, and I don't get to see them as much, but and I got a lot of great things in my life and I can't complain, to be honest with you, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:What, what kind of? Started you off in like, what were some kind of foundational things for you into wanting to get into the booking, like you said. You mentioned the, you know, not necessarily having shows, but like around the area but and wanting to see these bands. But was it like an what, what was part of? I don't know how did you get into?
Speaker 2:you know some of those bands, like what were some of the first bands that you listen to, that you really Well, I, yeah, I grew up in church like anyone else and for me you know my parents, you know, carmen, I'm not going to be Smith, amy Grant, that whole world which I still, to this day, love, it's nostalgic for me. I love it. Some great songs, some terrible songs, but it's just. You know, that's kind of the foundation. And then the first show for me that really like impacted me and I tell this to everyone, that band Petra, I don't know if you ever, ever oh yeah, oh yeah, I went and saw them when I was I don't even know how it was, I was probably 10 or 12.
Speaker 2:I don't even remember. I just remember being so excited to go and I went with my friend and his dad and it was this place in Missouri. I was in Missouri at the time and it was this college and they had like ramps and pyrotechnics and this whole like I had never seen anything like that in my life. You know, I just went to church with my parents and then I discovered rock, and Petra was like the first band. That was my love. They were like a first and I went and saw them in. It like totally changed my scope of my life. Really, if you think about it like just lit this weird fire that I was like this is so cool. That's all I want to do is go to shows Like I love it, it's euphoric, it's like you know I walked away being like that was the greatest night of my life at 12, you know like, and you know to this day it's still up there. I've seen hundreds and thousands of bands and I'm like that Petra show was defining to me Right. So, yeah, definitely that one.
Speaker 2:I would say another corny one, but Newsboys saw them with my friends. So this is, this is kind of a. I'll step back just a little. So my friends and I, my friend Andy Gallo, and we kind of grew up together in Maryland area when my dad was a pastor out there and there was this we started.
Speaker 2:They started in shows in West Virginia which was about I don't know 15, 20 minutes away, maybe 30 minutes, something like that, at a college and they'd had like Steve Taylor and Newsboys and PFR and all these like crazy you know at the time, kind of fringy bands. I guess, if you will, that was kind of, you know, precursor to tooth and nail and all that world actually might have been right around tooth and nail. But but anyway, the Newsboys came, it was on my birthday and my friend Andy and I we went really early and we went backstage, that walk to the back of the venue and just pick something up and walked in with it. We literally I'm looking back on it that was so crappy and so assy, but we picked something up and walked in and they were. They could tell we didn't need to be there and we weren't part of the crew or anything but they kind of just let us do our thing.
Speaker 2:And then the next thing you know we're hanging out with like the Newsboys and we're like walking around stupidly, like getting like one of us would like walk behind and like smile and wave, and we take a picture of each other Like yeah it was so stupid.
Speaker 2:It is amazing at the same time, because it's like we. They probably were like what the hell are these dudes doing here? Or these kids, I guess I should say because I don't think I was, it was 94. So, whatever, that was probably 16, I don't know and a code of ethics open. I don't know if you ever heard them either. No, no, yeah, so it was Newsboys and code of ethics, and they were like code of ethics.
Speaker 2:It was like a to Pesh mode, christian to Pesh mode, or new order or something like that, which, ironically, he lives here and he's a good friend of mine now. So it's, it's just weird how you know, life takes you in different avenues. But anyway, that show is defining for me as well, because Newsboys weren't really big at the time and that my, my buddies and I, we just loved them. I don't know why. I think it was just because they weren't my good W Smith, or they weren't, you know, and they kind of were just on that fringe of light, alternative light, whatever you want to call it. And that show was amazing and again, it was on my birthday, so I just never forgot it. I kept the poster, that whole world, and then I started and so I saw PFR there. I don't know if you heard PFR.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:I just had Mark on my podcast, which is frigging mind blowing to me Like I love him. He's such a sweetheart.
Speaker 2:You know, if you told me at 16, I'd be texting Mark Nash every couple of days, I'd laugh in your face Like it's just one of those things like just super grateful and it's absurd, but anyway they played their bride, just like all these, like you know, kind of the fringe bands that were like not your normal CCM, if you will. And so then I moved, my dad moved to Jacksonville, our family moved to Jacksonville and that Murray Hill Theater I talked about was really pivotal for me because all the bands that I loved at the time because my buddy Andy and my friend Aaron Horvay, we were all into hardcore we got into like focus. We love Starfire that's like one of my all time favorite bands. We got into focused. We loved I can't remember right now Strong Arms, like my favorite hardcore band of all time. You know just that whole. Anything tooth and nail put out, we just freaking ate it up, all of everybody.
Speaker 1:Anyway, you make that jump though into from, like you know, PFR to strong arm is like a pretty well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:I think it's just the. I think it's just that, first, like, whoa, what the hell is this? Right? This is cool, like. Should I like this? Am I supposed to like this? Right?
Speaker 2:You know, my parents were actually really cool about me listening to music. That was not normal, I mean. They might not have understood it. In fact they're total choir geeks, like total Oregon piano people, yeah, but they knew I love the music and I was passionate about it. So I think it wasn't a big deal to them as long as it wasn't like, and my mom worked at a Christian bookstore so she would like bring CDs home for me, and you know, so I think, to me, I think that was her way of showing me that she loved me and my dad as well. That you know, hey, it was Christian or whatever the mindset was, but yeah, so I think I think just discovering, you know, the first time I ever heard like Starfly 59, I couldn't, I didn't understand it like in a good way. Yeah, I was like this is insane. And then, of course, that opened my world to. You know, jesus and Mary, my bloody Valentine's load. I've like all this like and I would.
Speaker 2:I was obsessed with the prayer chain, and that was one of our favorite bands and still dear to my heart, and that's another. That's another show too Sorry, that's when I forgot Prayer chain and Starfire. We saw them. We what we drove to West Virginia and went and saw them and that was a mind numbing show. It was unbelievable. We were like inches away from prayer chain, which, mercury, is one of my all time favorite records. It's flawless in my opinion. And then Starfire you know it just put out silver and so it's like two of the greatest bands in my world playing in front of 150 people. I don't know whatever Mind blowing mind blowing and I'll never forget that day, because that was the day the Oklahoma City bombing and you know there was that was pre really massive internet, so we didn't even know that happened till we got home. I was like one of those things, but that was highly influential show for me.
Speaker 2:And then cool, another thing too. That's cool. I talked to Chris from luxury recently and they were on part of that tour and he was like that whole tour. All the bands were the crew, which I thought was really cool. You know, like when you grow up, you're like they have a whole crew and it was like that. We noticed that we're like that's cool, they're setting up the venue, stuff. You know, it's just, and that's another kind of reason why I kind of was intrigued by all that stuff. And then there's one other show, I'll say, and then I'll go to the Murray Hill.
Speaker 2:And then so my friend Aaron Horvath mentioned earlier we drove to Ohio, norwalk, ohio, for this festival called Alterna Fest and it was MXPX, blenderhead, six Pints, none. The Richer, prayer Chain, starflyer 59, morales Forest, six Feet Deep Focus I don't know if I said them already Zay, original Zayo before Sean, like Eric Bloodshed, like I don't know 60 bands, probably I don't remember. And I was underage and my parents sent my friend, our friend Ted, who was an adult, and he, I paid for his ticket. I was like you got to go, I got to go to the show, one of those things. But we went and it was amazing, it was phenomenal. And we met Jesse from Zayo, Actually, at that prayer chain Starflyer show.
Speaker 2:We actually met him there and he was in line in his peddling his Zayo tapes and we became friends with him. And then so at Alterna Fest he crashed in our tent and hung out and we got to meet some people it was really cool, real informative, or like, real like. For I guess it's just a formative for me, you know, just seeing the whole festival of my first festival, if you will.
Speaker 1:Right right.
Speaker 2:So fast forward to moving out of Florida and Murray Hill Theater had all those bands come play there. You know what I mean. That's kind of, you know, I didn't have to drive eight hours, I didn't have to drive three hours. This was like 10 minutes from my home and it's an old movie theater but it's, you know, like probably 1920s, 1930s, beautiful, nostalgic looking.
Speaker 2:And you know, starflyer 59 is playing there, folds Ender is playing there, luxury is playing there, like all these bands that I'm like geeking out about at this time are playing for three bucks, five bucks, you know, and my parents would just drop me off. And I met new people there and because I'm just a social guy in general Right, especially when it comes to music, you know, I noticed somebody with a shirt on oh hey, I love that, you know that whole world. And so I started going to shows there and I started working with some of the bands in town and as like a manager, if you will, or somebody that bookshows for them, and yeah, that kind of that kind of was like the snow, the first part of the snowball, you know.
Speaker 1:That's pretty crazy. I mean, was there kind of a thing with your parents, too, where it was like, well, these are Christian bands, so we know particularly that, like the type of people who are going to these shows are, you know, quote unquote, like safe or whatever? Was that part of allowing you? Yes, 100% places, yeah, I believe so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I believe so.
Speaker 2:Now I will say, the older I got, I got to go to you know, there was a couple I don't call them secular venues, but venue called the milk bar and the Moto lounge and all these other ones and I would go to start and go to shows.
Speaker 2:The older I got, like you know, and I was like I guess I was 18 because I was, yeah, I was kind of doing my own thing, but yeah, I mean, I think that was the safety net of it and that's what's ironic about my church, my former church, saying what they said about it it's like, man, you're dropping kids off at a safe place Like this is, you know, it's free babysitting, you know, like, you know, $5 for babysitting or whatever it is. So, yeah, absolutely, I'm sure that was for my parents, something that they were like okay, this is cool, this is legit, this is awesome, and I might understand where my son's coming from. But more power to you, you know. So, yeah, absolutely, I think it was cool when it was super influential in my life and I still go to shows there here and there, and the guy that runs it now, he's cool, we hang out, it's cool.
Speaker 1:So I for those bands. Was there any type of like as you're like talking with them and stuff, like I'm really interested in what the possible pressure there was to maintain a certain image or maintain like faith, because I remember I went to go see gosh.
Speaker 1:I can't even. I can't remember their name now. They played a song called Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth. After the life of me I can't remember who they were. I don't know, they're pretty popular, but one of them was like smoking a cigarette outside of the van and we were like, oh my God.
Speaker 2:I have, or you'd trust me there's multiple times I saw multiple bands who will not name much, because to me, looking back on it, I was so the same way. I was like oh, in fact I don't know, did you ever like sometime Sunday?
Speaker 1:I don't, I don't know that I were.
Speaker 2:OK, so they were one of the first tooth and nail bands I had Mikey on my podcast, he's a promoter as well and we talked about this because they on their record, at the end of the record, like the hidden track, there was a cuss word and it ruined their band. It completely ruined their band. But yeah, no, they were like canceled before canceling Like they were done, no, like Christian bookstores went and stocked their record. You know all that whole world. But anyway, my whole point was I would go to shows at Murray Hill and there was a couple of bands that I love and I saw them out back smoking and I was like whoa, like what's going on here? Like this, you know the self-righteous, you know Christian kid is like wait a minute. You know that whole world. And you know I'm 45 now and I look at it and I'm like it's dumb, it's stupid, like right.
Speaker 2:You know, but you couldn't tell me that 18. Like, I just was a product of my environment. You know I was a product of the AG or you know whatever you want to call it. So yeah, when I saw that, that blew my mind for the first time. Hold on Burlac to Kashmir.
Speaker 1:Oh okay, the band was oh yeah.
Speaker 2:No, I believe that they probably they were. Yeah, and there's probably so many bands like that that people have no clue that they did that, or Right. Right, you know, and, like you know, when I booked bands at some point too, like, have it on their rider, they you know what liquor or beer I know. At that point I didn't care, but it was definitely interesting.
Speaker 1:It's just, it's so mind blowing to me that it's like I mean now right as a as a kid not so much, but it's like that one little action could be like oh my God, are they Christian?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's like you. You like literally throw out any nuance of anything and just because that's, that's kind of just how it is, you know no.
Speaker 2:And again different areas of the country a little different. You know I'm the South. It's a little more straight laced, it's a little more you know. Hey, we don't do that down here, type of thing. And then, we've got these bands from the Northwest. You know you're in Portland. You said right, yeah, portland, seattle, you know Los Angeles, and they're living a different lifestyle, living a different world.
Speaker 2:And you know, at 45, I can totally respect that At 18, I was fibergasted. I was, and you know, the older I got, obviously I started to see you know hey, you know, I don't have a problem with this Like I think I just it was just the I don't know what the word is you know just that world. So I guess my world was expanded by seeing that, but not in like, and I never. I never smoked. I never was like, oh, I need to go smoke or whatever. I love cigars now, but it's like I wasn't like influenced by that by any means yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, I've always kind of prided myself in personally. I'm like I always thought myself as a leader. I'm like I'm just going to do what I'm going to do. Like when I was in high school, everyone's like we're partying in drugs Me, my friend Aaron and Andy we're straight edge at the time and we would be like we're good, we're just going to get a listen to Parkour Records, you know whatever. So it's just like I don't need to be at your party, that type of world. I'm like we're fine doing what we're doing.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I mean, I definitely blew my mind for, you know, a year or two, but then I started seeing it more and more and I'm sure to be honest, with you being on the road all the time, oh yeah, it probably was just the hell out of them and the anxiety of having to play band and then having the anxiety of having a church promoter or youth group say, well, you didn't say enough about Jesus or you didn't. That would stress me out. I mean, I totally understand why they would do that, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So you're getting into, you're like maybe kind of, hey, I can do this, I can do this too, like what were some of the more like difficult aspects of trying to throw shows?
Speaker 2:The most difficult is having money.
Speaker 2:That's the most difficult because I started with nothing and I ended with nothing. But I think the hardest thing is just being really organized. And I'm pretty organized for the most part, just remembering like little details. When I emailed someone I only had one or two times in the five years I booked, where I double booked. You know like I was like oh crap, I forgot. You know oh crap. And then you know it wasn't a pleasant conversation. But you know, I think just lining everything up and making sure everyone that you've lined up is understands their role, understands hey, you know I've got to be available this time. The venue was usually the actually ironically the easiest part because they were like sweet, you're filling our place up with like 600 kids, yeah, or making a bank at the bar, and it's funny, ironically. But that Eagles Lodge I wound up doing one probably four or five venues in that town all different sizes, but that Eagles Lodge was like when I was booking shows. It was like like 150 bucks to rent.
Speaker 1:That's so that's absurd.
Speaker 2:Like they never raised it. They never like once were like wait a minute, you're bringing all these kids in, let's get more money from you. They never once did. Which thank you, because, whatever I mean, I even my ex, my ex-girlfriend Long time ago.
Speaker 1:I used to throw shows in New Jersey with her friends and it was a VFW oh no, it was an Elks Lodge, I'd say type of thing. It was like, yeah, you know, very easy for them to throw her dad work there. But, like you know, those were the places that were things were popping off for like VFW halls and oh yeah, totally, and things like that, because they just didn't charge a ton.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I mean it makes sense. And you know it's funny too, because that cap was probably A hundred people Right, and I would get 600 kids in there Like that's. Yeah, it was nuts.
Speaker 1:There's just something burgeoning about that, though, you know. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And you know what's I was to say. The one thing, looking back, as a 45 year old man now I had no insurance, I had no all the stuff that you think about now, and I was like, by the grace of God, right, there was nothing that bit me in the butt. You know nothing that, like some kid got injured and you know I got sued and all that, that whole world that I never thought I was 23, 24, doing it and I'm like so grateful. Obviously that happened. But you know things like that you don't think about until you're older and you're realizing, oh well, that was probably not the safest decision. You know, again, that came back to money. You know was there any?
Speaker 1:was there any indication of like did you pay the bans or was it kind of like you just get whatever is coming into the door?
Speaker 2:Oh no, you have a contract, you, they basically you. You.
Speaker 1:When the agent hits you up, you you know offer, put in an offer for a guarantee or a door deal or whatever it may be, and you agree upon that offer and then they send you a contract out and say you're going to pay this ban, this amount of money, and then the support bans as well, like usually, it's like a package deal, right when there's a headliner and a couple openers and that each ban gets paid a different amount per show which is crazy to me, because I don't know if you saw this kind of start shift, but like once the scene started like getting really really big and different bands were playing around like I was in a band at the time and we were really trying to play different venues and different things like that and it started becoming like promoters started making bands Like I think we open for like mustard plug and like fly leaf or something like that and I was talking to Jason Gleason about this too, because he now lives in that area but like we had as a band, they made us purchase tickets.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and sell them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And we were like this is the biggest crap I've ever played. Yeah, I'm not going to pay to play somewhere.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like luckily I stopped doing shows around that timeframe. I can see where the promoter is coming from, but I also can see.
Speaker 1:As a business person I can totally see. Yeah, I mean it totally.
Speaker 2:I never did that Not saying I would have never done that. I think, you know, at the time when I ended, times were tough, like you know, the economy had crashed and that was, there was just a lot. So it was like, you know, everyone, everyone was for themselves in a weird way. Um, but yeah, I never. I never did that. I would always like. What I would do is like if there was a local band, um, or that one of the jump on, I'd be like, look, I can't pay you, I really just can't, but you're going to play in front of 400 kids, or you're going to play in front of 300 kids, or if the show went really well, I would pay. You know, I would take out of my own pocket to give, because I understand what they're doing. I get it.
Speaker 2:I actually did that with in pending doom. Um, they emailed me to play a show and I had. It was like a big show, it was like a case of strain. Oh, I can't remember Despise icon, it was just massive metal to her job for cowboy, I think I don't something like that and they messaged me and I was like, look, you guys can play, but I can't pay you anything? And the show was bonkers and so I paid him out of my own pocket Um, again, my hundred bucks wasn't much, but it was like I don't know, it was cool because I didn't want them to walk away with nothing. They drove out there and they and they and they wound up just freaking, blowing up after that, which was awesome and they're great dudes and they never forgot that, which was really cool.
Speaker 2:I felt like I talked to Manny recently he's going to be on my podcast soon and, um, he's like I'll never forget that. That was just. You know, they remember things like that, you know when they're you know. So to me, yeah, yeah, to me, I wanted to be, um, when I did shows. Man, I really I have a customer service mindset, I guess, or a servant mindset, or I want to please people, but I also want to like take care of people. I love being, I love taking care of you. I just kind of a love language, I guess. It's just you know. And so to me, I wanted the bands number one to come back, number two to think. You know, realize that I feel like I'm a cool dude and I want them to. You know, see that I'm a cool dude. It's not even about being cool, but like that you they can trust me is what I'm trying to get at.
Speaker 1:Right, right.
Speaker 2:And um, so yeah, for me it was just. I loved, I loved just being a part of something awesome and being, you know, just somebody that these bands are like hey, this guy's going to take care of us, we're going to get fed, we're going to play a great show, there's going to be a lot of kids there, we're going to bro down, it's going to be fun. And now we want to come back. You know, that was my mindset and it's like to me. If I continue doing that, then this scene's probably not going to die. You know this. And it wasn't even about the scene. To me, it was just about let's just do something cool, let's have cool bands play Like that's all I cared about.
Speaker 1:To me. It sounds like, you know, and something that seems to be lacking a lot right now, I think in general, is it was community, right, oh, absolutely. It was like a sense of of like, well, I'm doing this because I'm part of the community, right, or like I'm fostering community, and it it seems like that's what drew lots and lots of people in to these shows was because there was a sense of community Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I was. When I was talking to somebody else. I was like you know, it used to be that you could look at a person and you could look just by how they looked, you could like see, you could tell what type of music they were into, and you would be like, oh, that's a first scene forever, sure, like that's my guy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And it was like you were automatically like like part of part of something you know, and it. That's, that's what makes makes it special, and then that could be that could be said for church. It could be said for a lot of you know different things, but there's something about that, I think, time period and that alternative music scene and post hardcore and all that stuff where nobody was left out.
Speaker 2:Well, everyone ultimately wants to be accepted in some way, shape or form. You know, what be what it may like to me, you want to be a part of something. You know, when I was in a hardcore, I wanted to be. I wanted to be a hardcore kid, I wanted to be a crew. Not a crew, but you know, I want to be a part of like the homies you know right and you know, and I just wanted to be and, like I mentioned this recently, it was someone on one of my episodes.
Speaker 2:It's like I mean, I felt like a father in a weird way to a lot of these kids.
Speaker 2:I say kids that I probably wasn't much older than a lot of them, but I just felt like I wanted to give these people and the younger people that were coming to the shows, that were paying all the bills you know things that you know. When I went to Petra, what it did for me, or what I went when I went to the perichain, what it did for me, what I wanted to do is these kids to walk away and be like that was the greatest night of my life, you know, and it's like that's that was like over the five years or so that I booked. I got to a point where I was like you know, I just and I was personal, I wasn't like arrogant or like I, just I felt like people could, anyone could come up to me and be like hey, thanks so much for doing this show, and I'm like yes, absolutely Like we got more coming. Thanks for coming. I appreciate you coming out, that you coming out allows me to do more of these.
Speaker 1:You know so as a, as a like I mostly work with teenagers and like young adults as far as mental health goes, and I would say that one of the biggest detriments right now just is there's there's a lot of search for community or just identification, and not a lot of places for it to be found.
Speaker 1:And so, as you're kind of talking about that, I'm thinking I like what it, what it meant to me, what it brought to me as, like you know, a young 20-something and and even like beyond that, and just seeing the, the lack of it, at least in the area that I live in now, where going to a concert means like going to the motor center here, which is like a huge stadium, right, like there's, you know, there's the mix and matched things. Like when I talk to people, like, like I said, you were able to identify somebody by the type of music they listen to. Now, when I talk to them, there's, they're just, it's just more of like this, like I don't know, I don't know what I mean, like there's, you know, and you can see the detriment to, to the mental health of these people. So, in a way, people find their own ways of therapy right, and so, totally, you, you were providing some of that and a space for people just just to be and exist and express themselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that that's a really powerful, powerful thing, and I think that really, really touched probably a lot of people in ways that you don't even know you know, yeah, and I'm so grateful for it because it's like I still have people every once in a while a message me and be like, hey, thanks, man, that was so cool and you know, and I always I've been saying on my podcast, that's all just a man to help a drug.
Speaker 2:It really is just like you think back on these moments and these nights and these concerts and these, you know, whatever it may be, whatever your, whatever your fix is, and it's like I'll never forget that, like those shows I told you about earlier, that's edge to my brain forever and to me it's like I can look back on that and be like man, what a, what an awesome thing and what an awesome thing that music is in general. Music is. You know, it's so many different things to so many different people and you know I have somewhat of an identity from it in a weird way, and then that's not my entity in general.
Speaker 1:But like right right.
Speaker 2:You know, I feel like I'm been a part of some amazing moments for some awesome people that I might never, never talk to again, but to me it's. It's cool too, because, like I moved away from Wichita, I was on there for about 10 years or so and there's a great scene going on there and there's a lot of dudes that are doing shows, that were helping me with shows, which is so cool that they've kind of carried the torch, if you will.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's just awesome. I keep up with a lot of them and see what's going on and I'm so stoked for them, like I think it's so cool that they're like crushing it right now and like, yeah, it was never, like, oh, I need to be doing this, or right, right, but it's like I think it's so cool. It's like, man, it's just cool to like have a part in someone's you know potential creative outlet or potential band, or you know, I met my band at this show. You know, like that's cool, right, that's that relationships are what it's about for me, right, absolutely, I let. It's literally who I am and I cultivate relationships and I breathe life into relationships and I want the same thing, you know. So to me, yeah, I'm really grateful that I had that opportunity. I, like I said earlier, I miss it. I don't miss it, right.
Speaker 1:What's the effect? Yeah, yeah, what's the effect that you don't miss.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know what I? I feel like I paid my dues somewhat, and so I'll just take the guest list spot, you know so, which is nice, right?
Speaker 1:Yes, like to just waltz on. Yeah, there, and you know I'm grateful for it. What is, what's a band that you but that?
Speaker 2:you just were blown away by in terms of how large they got, um let me see, let me think oh, so I can name a couple of Chiodos. I don't know if they're still big anymore, but they were. I got them when, right when they were rising and they blew up pretty big. Um, I booked Well, I did under us, but they were kind of big at the time, but they're massive now which is great.
Speaker 2:Um, I booked Crap. I booked that band, escape the fate, which I think that guy's in falling in reverse, or something like that. They're really big now. Um, I booked Portugal man, um, about four or five times and they got massive. Well, they want to grow, they want to Grammy. Oh, did they really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they, like you know, and I did remember too, they got massive. Yeah, I booked them six or seven times and you know I remember paying them a hundred bucks or 300 bucks, right, and now they're like playing arenas, um, yeah, those are probably the biggest.
Speaker 2:Um, there's a couple I turned down that I regretted turning down, um, because I didn't know at the time. It was just kind of one of those things that's like you don't know, right, I turned down the almost once which you know I should have done, but I turned down, uh, what's up in this moment? I think they're called. They're like really big now. They're like a shock rock band or something. Um, and there was a couple like heavy bands that I've booked that are pretty big now that I don't keep up with a lot of that stuff much anymore. I mean, I kind of keep my on it, but I don't. You know I I hate to say this, but I booked so many freaking bands I can't keep track of half of what they sound like.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, I do like them. I just I'm like, yeah, I it's starting to, it's starting to, you know, not not be as clear. I guess I should say what made you pass on the almost? You know, uh, that's a good question. I think it was because, you know, looking back on it, I think it was just because the guarantee was a little higher than I would want to for where they were, it was that Eagle swatch and I, you know, I just didn't know, I didn't know if Aaron Gillespie could draw. You know that, and I didn't want to lose money. To be honest with you, looking back on it, it probably wouldn't have been pretty well, you know, I, just looking back on it, I regret doing that, but yeah, that's what it is, yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think, was that? Did he start the almost after he left under oath, or was it? I think it was during the process.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, cause I had booked under oath, I think a year or so before that, so I knew they were big, but it was just like it's not under oath, you know, and I had booked Um, this is part of the reason I was thinking about it. I booked taste the day. I probably I don't know five or six times and then when Steven joined the second singer, he came through and did his solo stuff and nobody showed up. So to me I was like I don't really know and not not to slight Steven. Steven is incredible and he's, he was so talent, amazing. It was called uh, steven and the lion tamers.
Speaker 2:It was awesome, um, but I had like 20 people show up or something you know, and I was just like I don't know If I want to book this band for whatever the cost is, and 30 people show up you know, that that was my mindset, I believe. At the time that I'm thinking about it, I think it was just kind of like I don't know.
Speaker 1:They weren't big. They weren't big. You know, that's super interesting, I mean, cause there's the whole business side, right, there are a couple of bands that I saw that, yeah, okay, like one was the beautiful mistake.
Speaker 2:I saw them in.
Speaker 1:Elizabeth, new Jersey, and I was talking to Josh, but he's like I know exactly what show you're talking about. He was like, because that was the night, the promoter was like whatever steam you guys had is gone, and because, like nobody showed up, um, and I, I think maybe 15 people showed up, and I also remember going to see 238, uh, in Tulsa, um, gosh, I can't remember what the name of that. It was a coffee house, it's called the loft, I think. Okay, and like nobody was there either. Yeah, and, and from a business standpoint, I, you know, I from both of from a promoter standpoint, what, what, what is that like when nobody shows up?
Speaker 2:It's heartbreaking. Yeah, um. Now back to what I said at the beginning. If I had money it might be a little different, because with when you book shows, you know the bands you want to book or that you think are going to be good. The agent typically wants you to book other bands and those are the bands where you lose your money because you're like nobody knows who this band is but it's like I scratch your back, you scratch my back, type of thing.
Speaker 2:So it's, it's heartbreaking, it's stressful, because I got to go to the ATM and I got to pull money out and I had kids and all that and I, granted, I had a, um, a buddy named Terry Taylor who was he co-prod with me on a ton I probably, I'd say the majority of the of the shows. He ran shows in Lawrence, kansas area. He was in a band called nodes of Ranvier and, um, he was a amazing, incredible guy and I had booked nodes and we became friends and he's like, hey, let's help each other out. And so we would co-pro and a lot of shows I would get through him and some I would get my on my own, but we really just helped each other and that really helped lighten the load on me a lot, to be honest with you, uh, financial at least.
Speaker 2:But um, you know, cause when we lost, it was we both lost everything, just me, right? So anyway, um, yeah, it's disheartening because you put all this time and effort into, you know, putting on a show and getting everything lined up and then, at the end of the day, all the people that are paying 15 bucks or 12 bucks for the show you're paying, whatever the rest of it. You know that's not a fun feeling, yeah.
Speaker 2:Especially if it's a band you could care less for you know, like you know, not, I'm not into, I hated. That was like the worst feeling in the world. Cool, I got to pay 400 bucks for this band I don't care about you know. And again, not to be, you know, holier than now. I just some bands I just didn't care for, but whatever, I mean if they made money, cool and kids liked it, awesome. You know, whatever floats your boat, but um, yeah, it was really.
Speaker 1:It was really it was like a painful experience.
Speaker 2:It is. It's not fun, I mean. And again, had I had money that might be a different answer. But um, you know, I'll be real with you. I feel like 90% of the shows I booked I profited some way shape or form. There was about 10% I didn't, which is pretty good. To be honest with you. Looking, you know, in the grand scheme of things is pretty decent. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think it's your main job at the time too.
Speaker 2:Yes, I did it for five years. Yeah, that was literally how I'm in money.
Speaker 1:Wow, um yeah, how many kids did you have?
Speaker 2:I have three. Okay, yeah, and it was. It was a lot in my. You know I I now on a on a. Later on I started I got like a part-time job on the side, just because you know that's when shows started to kind of go on the downhill a little and I could see, you know, the writing on the wall a little bit. Um. So yeah, that was for about four years. That's all I did, which was cool. I mean, I was grateful for it. Like, yeah, getting paid to hang out with bands, this was great, you know. So, yeah, again, don't miss it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, One of the things that I remember, um you know talking, I think, with, because I think I told you I was roommates with James for medicine glass.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, dude, I love James. Yeah, so we. James is amazing.
Speaker 1:We. One of the reasons I stopped going to or he was because they had dropped out to go play full-time. Yeah, and James was my roommate and and all those guys were were really good friends.
Speaker 1:Oh, they're so good people Followed them around wherever they were. You know like we helped out with shows and whatnot. But I remember just talking, I just remember that being there when certain things were going down as far as like booking tours and whatnot and just the kind of stress and the you know amount of like the business side, is what was the hardest for them. Oh, totally, you know they might say differently this. I mean, this was long time ago, but from my point of view it seemed. It seemed like just trying to book the show, to book the shows or you know, booking tours and things like that, making sure you get paid and being in the van, all that stuff.
Speaker 2:Just exhausting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it took a lot of the the joy out of the gig, and then, especially if people didn't show up, you know what I mean. Like, at a certain point you're just kind of like, why am I doing this?
Speaker 2:No, totally Absolutely, and I just had Josh from Edison glass on my pot. Did you hear it? By chance? I didn't get a chance to listen to it.
Speaker 1:You need to listen to it.
Speaker 2:It is unbelievable, like it literally is one of the best episodes I've ever done, because it and I say that because I mean we talk about Edison glass when we talk about you know his solo stuff and all that but then he tells the story at the end. That's like it like gives me chills to think about it. He talks about his brush with death and it's I mean I'm like crying the whole time. It's freaking nuts yeah.
Speaker 1:He almost died from COVID.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's what he talks about. And it's dude, it's incredible. I really highly recommend it. And I mean that and not to toot my own horn.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, no, no no.
Speaker 2:It's a beautiful story and the way he says it it's just eloquent and all that. But I love the Edison glass guys. They're so amazing. If I had to pick one band out of all the bands I ever booked that I could have on every show, I'd be Edison glass, 100%. That band is unbelievable. They're amazing dudes. They're incredibly gifted, incredibly talented. Yeah, incredibly. They should have been massive. They should have been massive they couldn't.
Speaker 1:From what I remember, they just they couldn't get on really good tours.
Speaker 2:I know. Well, he was talking. We talk about that. He talks about why I mean they were like outcasted from the Christian world but they're outcasted from the secular world. It's like but they're badass band like unbelievable.
Speaker 1:I go back and listen to their second album, and and was a time of fiction, and I'm like, oh, it's phenomenal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah, and like I booked. Actually, ironically, the only reason I booked them I don't even know I booked them but somebody emailed me was like you want to do this band? And I had him just play open up for somebody I don't remember who it was, maybe classic crime or something like that and they blew my mind Like I literally walked away, was like what the hell did I just see? And then, anytime I got an offer, I booked them. Yeah, and in fact they opened for MXP. I did book MXP at one time and I had they had a same date and they got direct support because I was like this band is going to blow people's minds and it was awesome, it was a great show. But, dude, I love those dudes Mountain. Yeah, joe, josh, I mean, I haven't talked to him in a long time.
Speaker 1:I mean Joe, I was playing some, I did some of my own music and Joe provided a couple of drum tracks he's great, such a good drummer and I did an EP in like 2006 and they were the backing band for it. Like I recorded it in Josh and Joe's house Nice, partially in the kitchen, I think yeah Was it, or was it in James's kitchen or whatever, but it was great. I mean I love. I love those guys to death and I love James still has like a. Really, you know, we spent a whole year together. That's so cool.
Speaker 2:Tell him. I said hey, if you talk to him. I will I haven't talked to him. I love, I love those guys.
Speaker 1:They're, they're super awesome, a lot of good fond memories. But, yeah, like that aspect of the business side versus like you know, doing what you love and and it seemed to be a really difficult choice to make for some people you know where it's. Like, man, I love what this does, love what this creates, and is it financially viable? Yeah, and I think, like if you're in your 20s especially, I think it's the thing that a lot of people come up against with music and what slows a lot of people down too was like I love playing shows, I love being up on the stage, I love doing all these things, but I hate like trying to get money from promoters or I hate losing money from doing shows or like nobody showing up. Like it's yeah, it's emotionally crushing.
Speaker 2:It's draining, absolutely, yeah, and I guess that's another kind of what I mentioned earlier too, I think. For me, I wanted the bands to know they were going to get paid. They will get paid, and I don't know how, but they will get paid at some time. But for the most part, yeah, they always got paid. You know, there was like one or two that I had to like we had to like wire money to them at some point, or something like that. It was very rare, very rare. But yeah, man, that's a difficult conversation, you know, especially when promoters are, you know, maybe some young kid books, a band or whatever, and they don't know the ramifications of not doing their part. I guess.
Speaker 1:Right when for you, did you know? It was kind of time to wind things down.
Speaker 2:Well, a couple of things. The first thing was the economy was going to shit and people weren't going to shows. I could tell the last full year it was just like you know, kids are getting money from their parents and their parents aren't making money Gases, you know, whatever a gallon bands aren't touring as much and the ones that are, it's like it. There was just a decrease, a palpable decrease, in shows. And then also I went through a divorce which was like really taxing, really hard, and my ex-wife helped me with the shows. So I didn't really want to get into a war of words over because, I mean, it was my idea, it was my. I did 95% of the work. She helped me at the door. That's about the extent of it. But you know she was involved. So I'm not going to say she wasn't, but I was and I just didn't want to. I don't want her to be like, well, I don't have the you know that whole world. So I just was like I got a regular job, I just needed to like, have stability for my kids, I needed to have stability for my mind, I needed to not be worrying about losing money. You know that whole world. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So Adulting, yeah, I mean, I think at that point I was what is it? It was 08. So 15 years, I mean I was 30 years, 28, 20, something like that. So I was I needed to grow up a little. I wasn't like living in fantasy land or anything like that, but I needed to. I needed to get a normal job, you know, where I had steady income and coming in and none leaving you know, other than child support or whatever it may be, taxes and stuff. But yeah, those are the two main things and I just I just didn't have, I just didn't have mental time for it anymore because I was just dealing with a breakup, a divorce, and I just didn't want. Yeah, I was kind of like low on the total pull for me priority was. I just kind of was like you know, I'm over it and I still am over it. I still bookshows here. Once a while I just had, I booked on web sailor a couple years ago you know just friends there Like let's, let's hang out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, hey, Jeremy, book a show or something like that. You know, let's hang out. And I just had Mr ENC recently and stuff like that Just stuff like just friends. But man, I just I'm really grateful that I got to do that stuff. But I like I keep saying I don't miss it, I don't miss, I miss the hang, that's what I miss. Yeah, but I can do that now, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what I can do now and I don't have to lose any money over it. But yeah, just those two main factors were the big thing and you know I don't regret it. I think it was cool. I was a cool experience. I feel like in my mind, I feel like God gave me an opportunity to do something I love and I feel like I thrived on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And yeah, I mean I just still have friends to this day. Obviously, you know, from the podcast it's like I have a lot of dear friends in the industry that I love and I love to keep up with and talk to and I don't know. I'm just really grateful for all those times.
Speaker 1:It's really cool, I think, something that I see that you know you're kind of talking about and I can relate to. Well, first of all, thank you for doing what you did, because I think what you know, what I mean, like you created community, yeah, and as I see as an adult and in my life and now and times that we live in, and how cultures change and different things, like community means a lot to people's mental health. Absolutely, it really does. You know, yeah, and I think in my, even in my own journey there's. You know, being an adult can be an isolating experience in a lot of ways too, you know. So you know, thank you for providing that for people.
Speaker 1:Back back in the past, you know, and even currently I would. Also, you know, something that it seems that I really relate with and that you keep coming back to is just relationship, yeah, and how. Now, personally, I that's where I experience, you know, god is within that, within the relationship that people have right, that's that's something that's really big on for me and you know this, I just relate a lot and I feel like this podcast that I've been doing has thought about. At one point I was like man, I should just change this to like I want to have a beer with that person, like the name of the podcast, because, like the conversations that I get into and stuff like that is incredibly therapeutic for me.
Speaker 2:Oh, same here, Same here.
Speaker 1:Even though I go see my own therapist, I go. It's like I get to connect with people that I admired and who also had some sort of like formational input into my life. I completely agree with that statement. That's me, you know, and it's amazing. It's amazing that that I feel like I get to do this and I don't, I don't care if anybody listens to be honest with you, because I get it's nice, but I get to feel fulfilled and and and whatnot, and yeah. So I, you know, I, I really I feel that connection with you in the sense of like relationship, because to me it's huge, oh everything, yeah, and that's what you know this podcast does for me, and I'm just wanted to ask you what surprises you about doing your own podcast?
Speaker 2:I think, I think the surprising thing for me is that I have certain artists hit me up.
Speaker 2:You know, I've the first. You know 40 or so episodes. I've just reached out to friends and or emailed or messaged people hey, I love having my podcast, blah, blah, blah. And I don't think anyone said no, which I'm really grateful for. Everyone said yeah, hell, yeah, count me in. And now I'm getting some artists that are messaging me that you know, some are kind of high profile, which is cool, and I'm, you know, I'm just it's weird because I don't feel like I'm a big podcast by any means, but I do feel like I have some traction right now, which is good, and I mean that in the best way possible. I mean that in like a humble way, like I'm really wholeheartedly grateful.
Speaker 2:I don't, like I told you earlier, it's not about me, it's about the conversation and like to me, like you said, having a beer with someone. That's what I feel like when I have these. I want more, anything. I want people to listen to my podcast like they're a fly on the wall and they're just hanging with us. We're having drinks together, that's all we're doing. So, yeah, I think probably people, some of the bands or artists reaching out to me has been cool and I don't know. I just to be honest with you, just being a part of the conversations and the stories.
Speaker 2:I think, listening to these, some of these, got a guy on the other day who's now. I don't think he's been on a podcast. If he has, I apologize, but he's never really told a story and pretty, you know, influential, in the early tooth and nail solid state or whatever you call it days, and he's like he messaged me and he's like thanks for letting me tell my story. And I was like no, thank you, that's right, it's amazing. I love that you got that opportunity, even though there might be some things I don't agree with with certain people. I'm all tell your story, man, like I don't care, like I, it's not you're right or wrong, and I'm not saying he said something that I didn't agree with, but it's just one of those things where it's like it's about the story, it's about the stories and I don't know. I'm just grateful that everyone's been so cool and so awesome and I don't know, man, I'm just yeah, I guess just people reaching out. There's been kind of mind blowing it at some point.
Speaker 1:So that's awesome and I mean personally thank you because you've helped me out a little bit in this. You know I'm cold calling a lot of people and it's been like super because I have really rare connections to people here and there. Like, do you ever book element?
Speaker 2:101? No, but my buddy, aaron, I spoke earlier. He's related to them some way, but I've seen him three or four times. He's related to one of, I think one of the one of the guys is his wife's brother.
Speaker 1:Okay, so yeah, I do know who they are, for sure, but and I've never booked them But- yeah, just those guys were Jersey band but like Christmas zone is one of the, the, that's who it is.
Speaker 2:I think that's correct. So, amy, amy, do you know?
Speaker 1:Amy, I probably, if I saw them.
Speaker 2:So his sister, I believe I could be wrong, but his sister is my friend, Aaron, that grew up with husband like he's he's and so that's how I know. I don't know, chris, but I know the name. That's kind of why I'm trying to get at, but yeah anyway go start.
Speaker 1:Well, just just like you know. Third, I reached out to Chris and and like my brother was really good friends with him at school and Melissa Verhagen, which is Bella, who used to be Jason's wife.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, she was in my grade. So we're like from this really small, like literally private school Okay, and like my brother used to like jam with like Chris and Sal and things like that, so just have like little connections here and there, but most of it has just been like cold calling. I think it's been surprising to the people who will say yes, like I was. Yeah, absolutely, you know. So, yeah, I mean you've, you've really encouraged me and I appreciate that, even if you know absolutely that like just answering some questions about, about certain things and like that.
Speaker 1:So I really appreciate you, man, and I really appreciate you coming on it. Do you want to plug what your podcast is?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I will tell everyone. I've never said this, but the rumors are true. Is was a complete joke name and I've just stuck with it. It really started as a as an inside joke with my friends, so it's not really like in theory about the rumors. It's literally just a joke that my friends and I always say it's the rumors man, the rumors are so true, but some stupid.
Speaker 2:In fact I actually started, as it was called, who's to say, and that was another drip that my friends and I all kind of, you know, have this little inside joke and I changed it because there was like a million who's to say's Right and so I was like there's not, the rumors are true, and so that's kind of why I stuck with it. So, anyway, it's the rumors are true podcast and it's on Spotify and Apple and Google, whatever. I don't even know what it's on Google and you are pumping out episodes.
Speaker 1:Man, you're a machine, bro.
Speaker 2:I to my detriment. Yes, I mean it's funny because I have about five or six that are done and ready to go. Yeah, I'm just trying to do it weekly so I don't over stimulate, over do it. But yeah, man, I'm so freaking grateful for this opportunity that I've had and, even if I hang it up tomorrow, it's been a wild ride and I am so grateful and so stoked. I'm not hanging it up, I'm just saying if I would be like.
Speaker 2:You know, I, I think my lineup so far has been insane, like literally insane.
Speaker 1:You have a lot of really good people and I'm like how did I do that?
Speaker 2:Like I, I don't know I'm just so grateful for anyway. Yeah, it's on all the streaming stuff and I'll tell you.
Speaker 1:I'll tell you how you did it, man. You did through relationships.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree, I agree with you. I Mean, yeah, you're right, and again, as you can tell from this conversation, that's really important to me. And right, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:and man, I mean that I mean that in the highest regard as possible. It's like you, I think, the most you know To create relationship and to have relationship drives people. You know, yeah, we're made for relationship.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely, huh.
Speaker 1:So for so for people to go like, yeah, I wanted, I want to do this. It's because at some point, somewhere probably, that you have come in contact with these people and these people know, you know either roundabout like, yeah, jeremy's really cool and yeah, you know that's goes back to the back, to the shows.
Speaker 2:I mean, really, it's an extension of me doing the shows, the concerts, in a weird way, you know, I that's exactly it. It's like oh yeah, jeremy, jeremy took care of us. He's been awesome, you know, and Just really grateful that they think that and I'm really grateful that. Yeah, I keep saying grateful like a Idiot, but I've heard it.
Speaker 1:I mean what, what, what is that? There's not another word for it.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I just don't want to take it for granted.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, awesome man. Well, I really appreciate you coming on and and talking no thank you.
Speaker 2:I really enjoyed what you've done. By the way, I Do that and I think you have such a great Candor and the way you talk and the way you flow. It's great and it's fantastic.
Speaker 1:Thanks, battle, you know. Yeah, I feel free at any time to submit any criticism too, because I Appreciate feedback on things. No dude.
Speaker 2:I again, what you're doing is great. You know, rome was built in the day, man, and honestly you listen to my first couple episodes to now, it's like, well, night and day in my opinion, like it's totally night and day. You know, I was trying to get my feet wet, trying to get used to it, trying to get in their zone, yeah, and so it's just the more you do, the better get.
Speaker 1:I think the hardest thing for me has been so like I Talked with Zach for me oh, he's great, I love that. Holy moly, did we go off on this rabbit trail of like Philosophy and theology that I was like at the end I was like yeah, he's. I don't know if I actually asked very many questions.
Speaker 2:He's a baller. He's a baller. He's like so Up here and I'm just like down here.
Speaker 1:So I know he's.
Speaker 2:He's awesome, he's. He's a intellectual for sure and such an awesome dude, really cool guy. I love him. He's great, are you?
Speaker 1:are you going to furnace fast? By the way, I'm not, I just don't I. So this is interesting that my the when I went to the first one or whatever, the 2021. Yeah, like that was baller for me, I got to have totally with With some of the guys from hopes fall and and. But really the highlight of it was meeting my friend up with my friend Dave, who I haven't seen in years, and you know we were college friends and just getting to connect with him. That's what it's about, dude.
Speaker 1:I yeah, and so summer camp room yeah, exactly. And so Nobody I knew was going, and so I was like I would like to go, but at the same time, if I'm gonna drop that much like, what matters to me is being able to be there with, like your homie.
Speaker 1:Yeah you know what I mean. And that, yeah, I mean like sure, like I can, I could hang out with other people and whatnot, but to me that was Way more important to me than than seeing all the bands I love no, I agree, I get it.
Speaker 2:Oh, the bro town.
Speaker 1:We went and got like a hot chicken somewhere and just come up on life and it was like that's so cool and and it's weird, because all the bands feel the same way.
Speaker 2:They feel like this is like, this is ours, this is our time to hang out, bro down, and you know.
Speaker 1:It was so mind-blowing to me too, like talking with I was on a, I was on a plane with, I think, the guys from converge and, oh nice, jeremy Enoch and also nice, you know, we're wearing masks. But like it was so funny to see and I say this every podcast but it's so funny to see like all the other bands geek out on, like other bands.
Speaker 2:Oh I know, I love it.
Speaker 1:Like freaking love that. Jason Gleason was talking about how he felt like a like like an idiot in front of Jeremy Enoch. He was like hi, just yeah, Stumbling yeah, he's the man you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's sick.
Speaker 1:It's actually one of the heavier seen him live.
Speaker 2:Oh my god, I've seen sunny day probably five times and I've seen him solo probably four times, so much he played in my friend's house. Crazy, I was geeking out, I don't. He's unbelievable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I man. I saw him one time in Bellingham, washington, where I I Used to live, and it was just him, he in a bottle of wine, and I honestly, like I had like a spiritual. Oh, I believe it, I believe that him, I absolutely.
Speaker 2:I totally believe that. In fact, I saw them last year at furnace fast. They had lined and that was. I've seen them so many times. That was the best I've ever heard them. They are like a machine, like absolutely, if they tour near you, you have to see them. Now they're like on another level, like which is weird to say because could they get on a right right? Like they literally are Another level, like it's insane. Yeah, man. Well, that's cool. I would have loved to link up with you at some at some point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely man. I don't I don't know how much you. I don't go over these cuz very much, but like I don't go to the West Coast.
Speaker 2:Well, my kids live in LA, but you know.
Speaker 1:Okay, down there, you know, if we ever do cross paths or we ever there is another furnace fest, I you know if there is one next year, which I'm not sure there will be.
Speaker 2:But well, I'm having Ryan on my podcast today, one of the oh, okay, Ryan, Okay so he's coming on at four o'clock today, so he's a.
Speaker 1:He's a homie, so I yeah, I don't know, you'll figure it out. Who's to say you know, really, I mean yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it'll be cool. I'm excited to go and hang out and I went last year, which was cool, yeah, so yeah, man, it's such a blast, like I, I yeah, it was.
Speaker 1:Just it was a lot of money for yeah, I believe it To get there and stuff. And like my friends said, like hey, if there's, if it is next year, like if there's an extra will go. I was like um.
Speaker 2:I bet you this year goes bonkers, there'll be another one, that's my guess. Yeah, you know hope, so yeah, absolutely man.
Speaker 1:All right, Jeremy. Thanks for having me, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you, Jeremy. I really appreciate you having me on and you're the first one I've went on, so I really appreciate you Wait and willing to listen to me, you know yeah, it's been great. Awesome dude. All right, and we'll talk soon. Yeah, thank you, buddy, bye, bye, Bye, bye.
Speaker 1:Well, that about does it for this episode. If you like the podcast, please consider subscribing. You can find us on all major podcasting platforms and on Instagram, at the scene cast. Again, thanks for listening and we'll see you next time, you, you.
